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ISF, RCF, GSF and LFA failed because Lexus went from ZERO to a hundred far too quickly for the public to accept.
I don't think they (IS F, RC F, GS F and LFA) failed. They did exactly what they set out to accomplish, produce reliable, capable and high quality performance vehicles at a competitive price. As a matter of fact, they're all sought after in the pre-owned market especially LFA. Who would have ever imagined that LFA would now hover in the $500k range for just the standard model and $1M for Nurburgring Package?
The IS500 is only going to be sold in North America. So I don't think Lexus is aiming to make money or volume, simply just use up all the UR v8 parts in the warehouse and finish off the assembly line of the UR v8.
What you forget is...the URV8 is used in the LC and that is sold worldwide....also, the URV8 is also used in the Toyota Century....so it IS still used.
I'll be shocked if Lexus tries to base price this at 60k+, but yeah as already discussed it's a completely different question as to whether any will be available with base spec (or anything close to it) - just like the IS F.
You do know the MSRP of the RC F was $62.5k, yes? [EDIT: just looked up the 2021 and it's now 65,875, 62,400 was the original MSRP in 2015].
Is the argument here really that if the RC F were instead a V8 swap in an RC350 and cost [$6k] less it would have been a sales success?
i don't know enough about what, besides the v8, separates an rcf from rc350 - tvd? cf parts? not sure what else.
Originally Posted by AJT123
I don’t think the base will be 60k.
so you think it will be less... i'd take that bet (it won't be less).
That’s part of what made the brand such a success,
everybody remember? Superior quality at a lower price.
yeah - 30 years ago.
Originally Posted by Tom44
the IS500 falls between a M340i and an M3 so low $60k seems reasonable. Maybe a little lower depending on how the base spec is equipped. If it’s a fully loaded car, then mid $60k or max out at $70k. I’d expect it to undercut the M3 by 10 to 15%.
not sure why they would offer much of a 'base' a lot lower than a loaded one because in the end, dealers won't want them anyway. remember tesla briefly and sporadically offering a car under $40K? i'm guessing between $63 and $68 from low to high.
That's unfortunate. Just talking to the people I know IRL who have expressed interest in this car, not a single one of them would be willing to pay >$60k for it. (I haven't asked our mutual friend yet, noting he's the only F owner I know who has actually expressed interest in the 500.)
I really feel like this car could be the death of the F brand, because I don't think it will sell well enough that the bean counters won't just kill it off. The car as it is already has the stench of bean counters all over it.
i don't know enough about what, besides the v8, separates an rcf from rc350 - tvd? cf parts? not sure what else.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
can someone share what an rc f has than an is500 f-sport performance won't? besides 2 less doors
Well we still don't know exactly what the IS500 will have as the PR was pretty vague. As far as the RC F vs the RC350 F-Sport, aside from all the interior/exterior trim bits - some of which are functional, like some vents and the deployable spoiler as well as seats - the big differences would be the suspension (70% components specific to the F, according to Lexus) and brakes. The PR for the IS500 F-Sport only vaguely mentioned a rear damper developed by Yamaha, and I doubt that it'll have anywhere near the tuning the IS F got. [EDIT: See posts below, the Yamaha rear damper is on many Lexus models and is not special for the IS500, it is not exclusive even to F-Sport models.]
The RC F also has various other tuning adjustments over the 350 (e.g., transmission), but I would also expect the IS500 F-Sport to receive those.
I think something telling will be whether the IS500 gets a TVD as an option.
Especially for an enthusiast sedan, to me the suspension and tuning as well as brakes are even more important than the engine, which is the reason I have absolutely no interest in the F-Sport. The brakes on the IS F are by far the aspect of the car that most surprised me.
That's unfortunate. Just talking to the people I know IRL who have expressed interest in this car, not a single one of them would be willing to pay >$60k for it. (I haven't asked our mutual friend yet, noting he's the only F owner I know who has actually expressed interest in the 500.)
I really feel like this car could be the death of the F brand, because I don't think it will sell well enough that the bean counters won't just kill it off. The car as it is already has the stench of bean counters all over it.
This car was created as an answer to poor sales of F branded cars. Someone must have figured that F cars cost arm and a leg to develop and some great chunk of that money goes somewhere where no marketing material could be extracted from in order to make it competitive in ads and reviews or road tests. In other words they got no straight line performance but have everything else that most people don't care about until they actually drive the car. So they came up with this, cheaper alternative repackaged as three tiered German performance line (Audi S-Line, S and RS). For the time being F cars are dead due to lack of competitive engine. RC-F is kept alive for the sole purpose to show the world that actual F car still exists and that brand is not dead. I love RC-F and I would take it over current turbo mess of M4 anytime of the day but that still doesn't mean it's a hackjob and unfinished story even though it's overengineered in some areas.
F-Sport Performance has probably put a stop to LC-F as well cause once again, if you can trust rumor sources, it was overengineered in some unmarketable areas that it became way too expansive.
RCF is $67k vs. M4 for $71,800 (2021); $69k for 2020
GSF is/was $86k vs $103k for M5.
Seems Lexus will price 5-15% lower than BMW.
the IS500 falls between a M340i and an M3 so low $60k seems reasonable. Maybe a little lower depending on how the base spec is equipped. If it’s a fully loaded car, then mid $60k or max out at $70k. I’d expect it to undercut the M3 by 10 to 15%.
I’m sorry to break this to all but this car will not sell if it just marginally undercuts the M3 as its not even comparable in any regard- performance, luxury, tech etc. M3 is on another planet anyway you measure it.
It has to be priced attractively as a base version maybe without some luxury features at around $60k or less and max out at high $60s.
BTW the new M3 comes pretty much fully loaded - the only options are CF seats and CF exterior/interior trim. You can realistically get new M3 Comp with Auto for $75k before discount. Manual is $72k. That is an incredible value for all that car has to offer.
I don't think they (IS F, RC F, GS F and LFA) failed. They did exactly what they set out to accomplish, produce reliable, capable and high quality performance vehicles at a competitive price. As a matter of fact, they're all sought after in the pre-owned market especially LFA. Who would have ever imagined that LFA would now hover in the $500k range for just the standard model and $1M for Nurburgring Package?
Any model which has no 2nd gen is a total failure from a sales perspective.
The main reason LFA prices are so high is bec they made only 500 of them and it has an incredible V10. Otherwise its definitely not in the top 10 of supercars of past 20years in terms of performance, innovation, or design. Its a great car but wasn’t worth the asking price and therefore the market shunned it at the time.
Well we still don't know exactly what the IS500 will have as the PR was pretty vague. As far as the RC F vs the RC350 F-Sport, aside from all the interior/exterior trim bits - some of which are functional, like some vents and the deployable spoiler as well as seats - the big differences would be the suspension (70% components specific to the F, according to Lexus) and brakes. The PR for the IS500 F-Sport only vaguely mentioned a rear damper developed by Yamaha, and I doubt that it'll have anywhere near the tuning the IS F got....
Here is the a Apples to Apples comparison... MY21 IS 350 F SPORT - DHP and popular builds.
Thanks for the note on the Yamaha rear damper, just seems like an afterthought, much like the rest of the car. Although I suppose that also means it won't add much to the cost.
EDIT TO ADD: Also, it's not at all an exclusive product. PR mentions it is on the base RC.
Originally Posted by Vladi
This car was created as an answer to poor sales of F branded cars. Someone must have figured that F cars cost arm and a leg to develop and some great chunk of that money goes somewhere where no marketing material could be extracted from in order to make it competitive in ads and reviews or road tests. In other words they got no straight line performance but have everything else that most people don't care about until they actually drive the car.
I'm not going to speculate on why Lexus decided to introduce this vehicle, but the problem is when bean counters come in and aim for cutting e.g. $15k/unit in costs by not developing a full-fledged F, only so that they can price the resulting car for only say $5k less than what the F would have been priced at anyway. That's not good for enthusiasts.
03-02-21, 12:52 PM
