mmarshall

OK, to answer your question, remember that both Ford and Hyundai/Kia, in the past, have been panned in the media for over-estimating MPG-claims for their regular gas/electric hybrids. So, as I see it, both companies are probably just playing it super-cautious this time.....not only with hybrids, but also with BEV-range estimates.

I never pay much attention to official MPG claims anyway. Depending on climate and temperature, with my Verano, I got just about the EPA ratings both city and highway; with the Lacrosse, slightly better; and, with the Encore GX, not quite as good.

Lets Drive

iTrader: (3)

Tesla seems to focus on ideal numbers, while other manufacturers lean more conservative. I don't think either is a lie, and I'd prefer to limit the guessing game in either direction, but as more manufacturers build EVs, we're going to see many other estimates on a curve, IMO. Once I know what the car is generally capable of, I'll adjust my driving to meet it, if/when necessary.

To that point, when driving conservatively (for my style) and minding my Wh/mi, I can generally hit Tesla's rated numbers (indicated on the energy display). One thing I've noticed with EVs, is that they're very transparent. By that I mean, the efficiency is objectively higher than ICE vehicles, and so any habits that you have from driving any other vehicle, are shown to you very clearly in an EV. You'll know the impact of rain, headwinds, tire pressure, poor alignment, coasting habits, etc. on range, especially when you add charge time to the equation. Of course, these are all true in ICE vehicles, but you rarely hear anyone hyper-focusing on the range impact (they'll talk about MPG), because they're less transparent when you factor everything in. At worst, you gas up in 7 minutes, and off you go another few hundred miles...inefficient driving or equipment be damned.

The other thing is, discussing "real-world" is all over the place, and doesn't present much value, if there isn't a control of some sort. Pre-covid, my commute was ~70 miles of mixed driving, but a good chunk of it was bumper-to-bumper. For me, that was also very "real-world" and it definitely factored into my decision to get an EV. I think many people make the "real-world" argument when looking specifically at free-flowing, highway speeds above 55ish, and use that to make an absolute point. I definitely get it, but if you're choosing to cruise at 70-80mph, you will get worse range numbers in any scenario, ICE or EV. If it's the difference between getting to your destination and not, you slow down.

However, cold weather performance is one area that should have more obvious, "real-world" information. If at some point in car history there was enough discrepancy between city and highway mileage to display the difference for ICE vehicles, then I'd say one should exist for cold/mild weather in EVs (not sure how it would work).

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

excellent posts everyone, thank you!

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

about epa ratings, my understanding is the mfr's do it THEMSELVES first of all, plus there's various 'cycles' (tests) they can do, potentially yielding differerent results.

but even all that aside, even if one can achieve the epa rating, some brands seem to be holding a chunk of kWh in 'reserve' that's actually range above and beyond their stated/claimed range, like a reserve gas tank. i think that's a good thing to make it less likely people will get stranded.

but this isn't a 'bash tesla' thread, it is what it is, tesla is a very aggressive pr and marketing machine with tremendous (and enviable) customer enthusiasm, loyalty, etc., and obviously an incredibly innovative company. the problems are well known so no need to rehash here, but they've been doing what they've felt they needed to do to achieve large scale deliveries and manufacturing.

i guess i hope there's better standardization on range, capacity, etc. across the ev industry.

i'm pretty certain my next car will be electric. not any time soon, so i look forward to seeing more innovation.

Lets Drive

iTrader: (3)

To touch on this, as people learn and adapt to EVs, there will be less reason to underrate range, IMO. It definitely makes sense to have a few kWh (I'm pretty sure all brands do, off the top of my head), but ultimately, I feel like too much presents two downsides (if you're talking about pure battery reserve/buffer)-- batteries are expensive and they're heavy.

For higher-end luxury cars it's probably not a big deal, but as you introduce more affordable or efficient models, manufacturers should definitely aim to give people the "just right" amount of battery for the majority of their commuting, in order to make the car cheaper (with a nod to battery supply constraints). Regarding weight, unlike gasoline where you shed it as you burn fuel, you're carrying the max weight of the battery pack 100% of the time. It doesn't make the most sense to lock out available capacity, when you're already dealing with the weight penalty. If you're underrating by dozens or even 100 miles, you've perhaps held back a bit too much and can offer the consumer the battery capacity/range they paid for. I also say this, because eventually it will become known that x EV actually has xx more miles of range than advertised, and so people will try to drive into that reserve, because it's there. IMO, it makes sense to offer a warning (which takes into account conditions + destination) at a given percent remaining charge, and offer the option to auto-navigate to potential nearby chargers. This also has the benefit of reducing the number of stops and faster charging (at lower state of charge), which both combine for time spent in getting to your destination.

To bring it back around to the topic, this is all to say I agree with your idea, in that we need better standardization. I'd also extend that to say the existing paradigm doesn't translate as well (including terminology like mpge, horsepower, etc.), and perhaps more consumer education is in order, as well. We'll see what happens.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

good post Lets Drive.

many ICE cars have had a 'reserve' amount of gasoline, so even when the gauge shows E or even lower, you can keep going for a while. so i don't mind the reserve idea to helpe people not run out of battery or gas.

another thing is that gas consumption may be more predictable than electrics consumption on a trip. obviously in steady state conditions an EVs energy consumption is VERY predictable, but if the weather turns colder or hotter, or the terrain gets suddenly hilly or flatter, then consumption's going to change radically and so the consumer who 'thought' they had 50 mi. left (and the car did too because i don't believe it *predicts* consumption based on future likely conditions?)...

i guess like you said, it's early days and consumer education will be important.

i look forward to the future when the range is 500 miles and recharging takes 10 minutes and available all over the place.

EZZ

Honestly, you'd probably be alright with 300 miles of real range and a 10 min fill up session. The more batteries you load the car with, the less fun it becomes. I much prefer how the Model 3 drives cars the Model S which feels much heavier.

Hameed

Now who's getting old?? Lol
500 miles?? Which ICE car of yours ever got 500 miles of range? 😁.

Don't be so scared my friend.

winterturb

Adding to this range conversation and seeing the need for range Increase there is a new disruptive technology coming that has all ready proven to increase the efficiency of an electric vehicle by 30%. (1 minute mark in video) That’s no small feat. It won’t resolve range anxiety but will go a long way to help it.



Tesla has not incorporated it yet. It will be impressive if and when they do

it’s still incredibly impressive That engineers can power a 4,000 lb car down the road for 250 miles with just a battery. That’s truly and engineering marvel.


full disclosure I am not affiliated with the company in the video in anyway other than owning shares. I have been watching them for a year and fully expert a tier one auto maker to become and exclusive user of this technology shortly as per the CEO’s commentary in an interview with VSA out of London

Lets Drive

iTrader: (3)

Agreed, and personally, I think it is, especially as temps drop.

Interestingly enough, the tech is getting there, similar to how it can account for range and time to destination based on traffic. Ford is advertising their system as being able to account for temperature, terrain and elevation, which seems cool (I actually expect this to come from the more rugged/utility focused EVs). Tesla at one point had neural net thing going on for rain detection, where a car could communicate rainy weather to others in the fleet (this was for automatic wipers, but I see no reason why this data couldn't also be used to more accurately predict range when wet).

winterturb

the chap from Engineered Explained took his Model 3 on both a summer and winter 2500 mile trip. His charging time was 1 1/2 hours less in the winter than In the summer In spite of 20% loss due to cold, both from cold inTransit and just battery loss from sitting all night. Why he was able to spend less time charging covering the same distance even with 20-% loss was because he traveled on the bottom end of the charge and didn’t wait till the car was fully charged. This was a fascinating finding from a time/cost efficiency perspective

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i've got better things to do on a trip than spending hours and hours charging a car vs 5 mins to fill with gas.

love ev's but they're just too much of a pain for long trips.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Ha, I didn't say i wouldn't buy one UNTIL they have 500 range, 10 min recharge, i'm just saying i look forward to the day because i can imagine that happening.

uh, my genesis g90 is about there... 22 gallons and 23 on hwy is 506.

Not scared, looking forward to owning an ev!

winterturb

couldnt agree more. Was just commenting on what he found. He spent 8 hours charging on a 2500 mile trip. Thats an eternity and not for me.

where I Live an EV makes no sense. -35 below for weeks and 2 hours to the nearest major city.

they do however make a lot of sense as commuters in stop and go traffic in most major cities and the range and battery life is improving so they will be even better especially now that they have technology to double the life of Tesla batteries.

FatherTo1

I haven’t driven other EVs but I don’t find Tesla’s range estimates exaggerated at all. Even MotorTrend confirmed the 370-mile Model S completed the 359-mile distance from Fremont to LA, with 11% (41 miles) range remaining. They exceeded range estimates during the trip with two people in the car, AC on, and 65-70 MPH.

I also routinely exceed the EPA ratings on our Model S. With my 72.5 kWh usable capacity, I need to average 254 Wh/m to get rated range but I actually use 230 Wh/m at freeway speed and beat EPA range. Below is a snapshot just over a week ago where I travelled almost 90 miles and averaged better than EPA ratings, even at 65 MPH.

All that said, I don’t intend to drive down to zero but I have gone down as far as 4% and traveled 245 miles. This equates to 90% efficiency for my 285-mile rated range. That is plenty reasonable in the real world for me, driving like I normally would the LS 460, and with climate control on — only difference, like another poster above, is I’m saving $3K a year in gas compared to the LS (well, in a non-pandemic year)...still 90% fuel cost savings regardless.

In cold weather, all EVs will experience significant range loss. @bitkahuna , if you’re seeing or reading a disproportionate amount of Teslas missing range targets, I suspect the majority of them are also riding on larger wheels, which do incur a 10-12% hit to range. Our Model S came with 21s and my range immediately improved by 12.5% when I downsized to 19” wheels. The Mach-e seems to use smaller wheel and tire combos and I’m sure that’s helping it hit range estimates, along with the larger reserve capacity.

Admittedly, I haven’t kept up with the Mach-e and other EV entries as I still don’t see a truly compelling competitor to Tesla yet, in terms of style, performance, battery tech, and charging infrastructure. A lot of automakers are still playing catch up but competition is fierce and everyone is learning fast. It is great that other EV models are designed to consistently achieve their rated range, that only bodes well to lure in new buyers and increase adoption. From my experience, Tesla’s range estimates have been pretty accurate (except in really cold temps).