EV battery sizes, ranges, and Tesla exaggerations
03-21-21, 11:36 AM
#91
A lot of these discussions lead to edge cases in order to prove a point, but I don't feel like they're representative of what most people experience. I get that some people do perform these types of trips, but I'd wager it's pretty rare that people make cannonball style runs like this. In the times I've taken long trips in a car, part of the point was that I was doing it specifically to spend time on the road, not rushing to point B. If trips like this were regular, it would make more sense to fly. In terms of time spent, what's more common is a daily commute. Pre-covid, mine was about 70 miles, round-trip.
In the IS F that meant filling up 1.5 times each week, or 78 times a year, minimum. Assuming I'm filling up at the nearest station to my house, that's about 7+ minutes (to get there, swipe, fill up, and return). So a very conservative 9 hours a year of my time, where I'm actively running a 100% errand and waiting at a pump for gas, to cover my daily commute, before parking my car overnight. At roughly $3.46 per gallon (current average where I am), with a ~17 gallon tank, it adds up to a bit less than $60 per fill (for simplification, since I don't wait until empty), or $4,680 per year. I can drive further to get better prices, but that would add time and impracticality.
Probably closer to what most people experience, I do have a 4 cylinder RSX that does better than the F. At about 30mpg avg, it does about 59 visits a year, at around 7 hours. At $2.87 per gallon, it's about $38 per fill, or $2,238 per year. Cheaper cost to entry, not bad in terms of economy, but the vehicle offers nothing in performance.
Contrast this to my M3P, where I leave most any daily destination, in this case my work commute, and don't have to detour for a strict errand. I spend 0 minutes of my time waiting on the car, because just like the F, it also sits overnight until the next day. I average 284Wh/mile, which at 10.65¢/kWh (average), is about $551 per year to cover the same commute. I can also add unique variables like setting charge to occur during off-peak rates, or charging at work/grocery etc., but I'm throwing a bone to the F. I have a poor solar score where I live, so I don't leverage solar.
When you factor in maintenance and performance between the three, the M3P is substantially cheaper (mechanically) and pretty much outperforms the F in daily/autox/dragging. When you start to add in the hundreds of mandatory, but short errands (hardware store, grocery, etc.), the M3P again pulls ahead, because most of these occur within 50 miles on a given day. In the F, that would reduce available gas in the tank after enough outings, and eventually force another trip to a station. In the M3P, it gets rolled into the standard overnight charging while parked.
So if I take 2 road trips a year, I'd really have to be creating some outlier scenarios to total up 7-9+ hours of actively sitting at a charger waiting. To be specific, if I'm parking any car to eat/bio for 30 minutes, I'm not counting that as actively waiting on the EV, since I'm doing those things, anyway.
So the question becomes, is trading daily and most road-trip quality of life worth it, for mostly outlier cases? For me, and most owners with a good amount of lived experience, no. However, everything from living situation, to type of EV, to frequency of trips and other behaviors play a part. This means just like ICE vehicles, EVs aren't for everyone, and don't need to be. Many of my coworkers never owned cars and have no desire, because public transit fills the need and they save a ton of money-- enough to easily cover a slow, relaxing road trip or pair of plane tickets. In the end, many people are overstating the downsides of charge times, without looking at the flexibility of charging opportunities (IIRC, cars spend some 95% of their time, parked), and using it to create unnecessary hypotheticals which don't always match the reality of EV ownership.
03-21-21, 11:41 AM
#92
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
And miss out on seeing all of this??
1. The spectacular long beaches on Lake Superior - Pancake Bay beach (best for sunrise/sunset)
2. The massive rocky outcrops of the Canadian Shield
3. Indigenous pictographs and ancient rock paintings by the shores of Superior
4. Chippewa Falls
5. Spend the night in Wawa
6. Terrace Bay - lighthouse and Aguasabon Gorge and Falls
7. Nipigon - lookout tower
8. Spend the night in Thunder Bay
9. Kakabecka falls Provincial Park
10. White horse monument
11. The Crossing at Grasslands, NE 8-3-13 W 3rd, Val Marie, SK S0N 2T0 - the Crossing at Grasslands near Val Marie SK but only if the forecast is for a clear night sky as the stars can be absolutely breathtaking.
12. The endless giant blue skies set above the rolling landscape and wheat & canola fields of the prairies
13. Cypress Hills
14. Dinosaur Provincial Park
15. Badlands just before the foothills of the Rockies
16. The tips of the Rockies peeking above the horizon after Calgary.
17. Icefields parkway (drive both ways) between Lake Louise Jasper park
1. The spectacular long beaches on Lake Superior - Pancake Bay beach (best for sunrise/sunset)
2. The massive rocky outcrops of the Canadian Shield
3. Indigenous pictographs and ancient rock paintings by the shores of Superior
4. Chippewa Falls
5. Spend the night in Wawa
6. Terrace Bay - lighthouse and Aguasabon Gorge and Falls
7. Nipigon - lookout tower
8. Spend the night in Thunder Bay
9. Kakabecka falls Provincial Park
10. White horse monument
11. The Crossing at Grasslands, NE 8-3-13 W 3rd, Val Marie, SK S0N 2T0 - the Crossing at Grasslands near Val Marie SK but only if the forecast is for a clear night sky as the stars can be absolutely breathtaking.
12. The endless giant blue skies set above the rolling landscape and wheat & canola fields of the prairies
13. Cypress Hills
14. Dinosaur Provincial Park
15. Badlands just before the foothills of the Rockies
16. The tips of the Rockies peeking above the horizon after Calgary.
17. Icefields parkway (drive both ways) between Lake Louise Jasper park
peyto lake on the icefields parkway provides an INCREDIBLE view from the road as you're WAY above it
man i love alberta!
by the way, we've stayed in Canmore several times, less touristy than Banff, but lots of great restaurants (if covid lockdowns haven't killed them) and places to stay.
03-21-21, 11:43 AM
#93
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by Lets Drive
Apologies in advance for the long post, but it's a nuanced topic.
A lot of these discussions lead to edge cases in order to prove a point, but I don't feel like they're representative of what most people experience. I get that some people do perform these types of trips, but I'd wager it's pretty rare that people make cannonball style runs like this. In the times I've taken long trips in a car, part of the point was that I was doing it specifically to spend time on the road, not rushing to point B. If trips like this were regular, it would make more sense to fly. In terms of time spent, what's more common is a daily commute. Pre-covid, mine was about 70 miles, round-trip.
In the IS F that meant filling up 1.5 times each week, or 78 times a year, minimum. Assuming I'm filling up at the nearest station to my house, that's about 7+ minutes (to get there, swipe, fill up, and return). So a very conservative 9 hours a year of my time, where I'm actively running a 100% errand and waiting at a pump for gas, to cover my daily commute, before parking my car overnight. At roughly $3.46 per gallon (current average where I am), with a ~17 gallon tank, it adds up to a bit less than $60 per fill (for simplification, since I don't wait until empty), or $4,680 per year. I can drive further to get better prices, but that would add time and impracticality.
Probably closer to what most people experience, I do have a 4 cylinder RSX that does better than the F. At about 30mpg avg, it does about 59 visits a year, at around 7 hours. At $2.87 per gallon, it's about $38 per fill, or $2,238 per year. Cheaper cost to entry, not bad in terms of economy, but the vehicle offers nothing in performance.
Contrast this to my M3P, where I leave most any daily destination, in this case my work commute, and don't have to detour for a strict errand. I spend 0 minutes of my time waiting on the car, because just like the F, it also sits overnight until the next day. I average 284Wh/mile, which at 10.65¢/kWh (average), is about $551 per year to cover the same commute. I can also add unique variables like setting charge to occur during off-peak rates, or charging at work/grocery etc., but I'm throwing a bone to the F. I have a poor solar score where I live, so I don't leverage solar.
When you factor in maintenance and performance between the three, the M3P is substantially cheaper (mechanically) and pretty much outperforms the F in daily/autox/dragging. When you start to add in the hundreds of mandatory, but short errands (hardware store, grocery, etc.), the M3P again pulls ahead, because most of these occur within 50 miles on a given day. In the F, that would reduce available gas in the tank after enough outings, and eventually force another trip to a station. In the M3P, it gets rolled into the standard overnight charging while parked.
So if I take 2 road trips a year, I'd really have to be creating some outlier scenarios to total up 7-9+ hours of actively sitting at a charger waiting. To be specific, if I'm parking any car to eat/bio for 30 minutes, I'm not counting that as actively waiting on the EV, since I'm doing those things, anyway.
So the question becomes, is trading daily and most road-trip quality of life worth it, for mostly outlier cases? For me, and most owners with a good amount of lived experience, no. However, everything from living situation, to type of EV, to frequency of trips and other behaviors play a part. This means just like ICE vehicles, EVs aren't for everyone, and don't need to be. Many of my coworkers never owned cars and have no desire, because public transit fills the need and they save a ton of money-- enough to easily cover a slow, relaxing road trip or pair of plane tickets. In the end, many people are overstating the downsides of charge times, without looking at the flexibility of charging opportunities (IIRC, cars spend some 95% of their time, parked), and using it to create unnecessary hypotheticals which don't always match the reality of EV ownership.
A lot of these discussions lead to edge cases in order to prove a point, but I don't feel like they're representative of what most people experience. I get that some people do perform these types of trips, but I'd wager it's pretty rare that people make cannonball style runs like this. In the times I've taken long trips in a car, part of the point was that I was doing it specifically to spend time on the road, not rushing to point B. If trips like this were regular, it would make more sense to fly. In terms of time spent, what's more common is a daily commute. Pre-covid, mine was about 70 miles, round-trip.
In the IS F that meant filling up 1.5 times each week, or 78 times a year, minimum. Assuming I'm filling up at the nearest station to my house, that's about 7+ minutes (to get there, swipe, fill up, and return). So a very conservative 9 hours a year of my time, where I'm actively running a 100% errand and waiting at a pump for gas, to cover my daily commute, before parking my car overnight. At roughly $3.46 per gallon (current average where I am), with a ~17 gallon tank, it adds up to a bit less than $60 per fill (for simplification, since I don't wait until empty), or $4,680 per year. I can drive further to get better prices, but that would add time and impracticality.
Probably closer to what most people experience, I do have a 4 cylinder RSX that does better than the F. At about 30mpg avg, it does about 59 visits a year, at around 7 hours. At $2.87 per gallon, it's about $38 per fill, or $2,238 per year. Cheaper cost to entry, not bad in terms of economy, but the vehicle offers nothing in performance.
Contrast this to my M3P, where I leave most any daily destination, in this case my work commute, and don't have to detour for a strict errand. I spend 0 minutes of my time waiting on the car, because just like the F, it also sits overnight until the next day. I average 284Wh/mile, which at 10.65¢/kWh (average), is about $551 per year to cover the same commute. I can also add unique variables like setting charge to occur during off-peak rates, or charging at work/grocery etc., but I'm throwing a bone to the F. I have a poor solar score where I live, so I don't leverage solar.
When you factor in maintenance and performance between the three, the M3P is substantially cheaper (mechanically) and pretty much outperforms the F in daily/autox/dragging. When you start to add in the hundreds of mandatory, but short errands (hardware store, grocery, etc.), the M3P again pulls ahead, because most of these occur within 50 miles on a given day. In the F, that would reduce available gas in the tank after enough outings, and eventually force another trip to a station. In the M3P, it gets rolled into the standard overnight charging while parked.
So if I take 2 road trips a year, I'd really have to be creating some outlier scenarios to total up 7-9+ hours of actively sitting at a charger waiting. To be specific, if I'm parking any car to eat/bio for 30 minutes, I'm not counting that as actively waiting on the EV, since I'm doing those things, anyway.
So the question becomes, is trading daily and most road-trip quality of life worth it, for mostly outlier cases? For me, and most owners with a good amount of lived experience, no. However, everything from living situation, to type of EV, to frequency of trips and other behaviors play a part. This means just like ICE vehicles, EVs aren't for everyone, and don't need to be. Many of my coworkers never owned cars and have no desire, because public transit fills the need and they save a ton of money-- enough to easily cover a slow, relaxing road trip or pair of plane tickets. In the end, many people are overstating the downsides of charge times, without looking at the flexibility of charging opportunities (IIRC, cars spend some 95% of their time, parked), and using it to create unnecessary hypotheticals which don't always match the reality of EV ownership.
03-21-21, 11:52 AM
#94
Lexus Fanatic
Apologies in advance for the long post, but it's a nuanced topic.
A lot of these discussions lead to edge cases in order to prove a point, but I don't feel like they're representative of what most people experience. I get that some people do perform these types of trips, but I'd wager it's pretty rare that people make cannonball style runs like this. In the times I've taken long trips in a car, part of the point was that I was doing it specifically to spend time on the road, not rushing to point B. If trips like this were regular, it would make more sense to fly. In terms of time spent, what's more common is a daily commute. Pre-covid, mine was about 70 miles, round-trip.
In the IS F that meant filling up 1.5 times each week, or 78 times a year, minimum. Assuming I'm filling up at the nearest station to my house, that's about 7+ minutes (to get there, swipe, fill up, and return). So a very conservative 9 hours a year of my time, where I'm actively running a 100% errand and waiting at a pump for gas, to cover my daily commute, before parking my car overnight. At roughly $3.46 per gallon (current average where I am), with a ~17 gallon tank, it adds up to a bit less than $60 per fill (for simplification, since I don't wait until empty), or $4,680 per year. I can drive further to get better prices, but that would add time and impracticality.
Probably closer to what most people experience, I do have a 4 cylinder RSX that does better than the F. At about 30mpg avg, it does about 59 visits a year, at around 7 hours. At $2.87 per gallon, it's about $38 per fill, or $2,238 per year. Cheaper cost to entry, not bad in terms of economy, but the vehicle offers nothing in performance.
Contrast this to my M3P, where I leave most any daily destination, in this case my work commute, and don't have to detour for a strict errand. I spend 0 minutes of my time waiting on the car, because just like the F, it also sits overnight until the next day. I average 284Wh/mile, which at 10.65¢/kWh (average), is about $551 per year to cover the same commute. I can also add unique variables like setting charge to occur during off-peak rates, or charging at work/grocery etc., but I'm throwing a bone to the F. I have a poor solar score where I live, so I don't leverage solar.
When you factor in maintenance and performance between the three, the M3P is substantially cheaper (mechanically) and pretty much outperforms the F in daily/autox/dragging. When you start to add in the hundreds of mandatory, but short errands (hardware store, grocery, etc.), the M3P again pulls ahead, because most of these occur within 50 miles on a given day. In the F, that would reduce available gas in the tank after enough outings, and eventually force another trip to a station. In the M3P, it gets rolled into the standard overnight charging while parked.
So if I take 2 road trips a year, I'd really have to be creating some outlier scenarios to total up 7-9+ hours of actively sitting at a charger waiting. To be specific, if I'm parking any car to eat/bio for 30 minutes, I'm not counting that as actively waiting on the EV, since I'm doing those things, anyway.
So the question becomes, is trading daily and most road-trip quality of life worth it, for mostly outlier cases? For me, and most owners with a good amount of lived experience, no. However, everything from living situation, to type of EV, to frequency of trips and other behaviors play a part. This means just like ICE vehicles, EVs aren't for everyone, and don't need to be. Many of my coworkers never owned cars and have no desire, because public transit fills the need and they save a ton of money-- enough to easily cover a slow, relaxing road trip or pair of plane tickets. In the end, many people are overstating the downsides of charge times, without looking at the flexibility of charging opportunities (IIRC, cars spend some 95% of their time, parked), and using it to create unnecessary hypotheticals which don't always match the reality of EV ownership.
A lot of these discussions lead to edge cases in order to prove a point, but I don't feel like they're representative of what most people experience. I get that some people do perform these types of trips, but I'd wager it's pretty rare that people make cannonball style runs like this. In the times I've taken long trips in a car, part of the point was that I was doing it specifically to spend time on the road, not rushing to point B. If trips like this were regular, it would make more sense to fly. In terms of time spent, what's more common is a daily commute. Pre-covid, mine was about 70 miles, round-trip.
In the IS F that meant filling up 1.5 times each week, or 78 times a year, minimum. Assuming I'm filling up at the nearest station to my house, that's about 7+ minutes (to get there, swipe, fill up, and return). So a very conservative 9 hours a year of my time, where I'm actively running a 100% errand and waiting at a pump for gas, to cover my daily commute, before parking my car overnight. At roughly $3.46 per gallon (current average where I am), with a ~17 gallon tank, it adds up to a bit less than $60 per fill (for simplification, since I don't wait until empty), or $4,680 per year. I can drive further to get better prices, but that would add time and impracticality.
Probably closer to what most people experience, I do have a 4 cylinder RSX that does better than the F. At about 30mpg avg, it does about 59 visits a year, at around 7 hours. At $2.87 per gallon, it's about $38 per fill, or $2,238 per year. Cheaper cost to entry, not bad in terms of economy, but the vehicle offers nothing in performance.
Contrast this to my M3P, where I leave most any daily destination, in this case my work commute, and don't have to detour for a strict errand. I spend 0 minutes of my time waiting on the car, because just like the F, it also sits overnight until the next day. I average 284Wh/mile, which at 10.65¢/kWh (average), is about $551 per year to cover the same commute. I can also add unique variables like setting charge to occur during off-peak rates, or charging at work/grocery etc., but I'm throwing a bone to the F. I have a poor solar score where I live, so I don't leverage solar.
When you factor in maintenance and performance between the three, the M3P is substantially cheaper (mechanically) and pretty much outperforms the F in daily/autox/dragging. When you start to add in the hundreds of mandatory, but short errands (hardware store, grocery, etc.), the M3P again pulls ahead, because most of these occur within 50 miles on a given day. In the F, that would reduce available gas in the tank after enough outings, and eventually force another trip to a station. In the M3P, it gets rolled into the standard overnight charging while parked.
So if I take 2 road trips a year, I'd really have to be creating some outlier scenarios to total up 7-9+ hours of actively sitting at a charger waiting. To be specific, if I'm parking any car to eat/bio for 30 minutes, I'm not counting that as actively waiting on the EV, since I'm doing those things, anyway.
So the question becomes, is trading daily and most road-trip quality of life worth it, for mostly outlier cases? For me, and most owners with a good amount of lived experience, no. However, everything from living situation, to type of EV, to frequency of trips and other behaviors play a part. This means just like ICE vehicles, EVs aren't for everyone, and don't need to be. Many of my coworkers never owned cars and have no desire, because public transit fills the need and they save a ton of money-- enough to easily cover a slow, relaxing road trip or pair of plane tickets. In the end, many people are overstating the downsides of charge times, without looking at the flexibility of charging opportunities (IIRC, cars spend some 95% of their time, parked), and using it to create unnecessary hypotheticals which don't always match the reality of EV ownership.
03-21-21, 01:13 PM
#95
EV ftw!!!
I deliberately showed/stated the 12 hours so that no one could "call me out" if I had stated a much less and realistic number when you factor in the variables that reduce that time.
03-21-21, 01:14 PM
#96
EV ftw!!!
great stuff! i've done a load of alberta and it's truly spectacular, my favorite place visually, on earth. do not miss moraine lake, it's way more amazing than lake louise that's more famous. emerald lake is lesser known and truly dazzling for the emerald green water.
peyto lake on the icefields parkway provides an INCREDIBLE view from the road as you're WAY above it
man i love alberta!
by the way, we've stayed in Canmore several times, less touristy than Banff, but lots of great restaurants (if covid lockdowns haven't killed them) and places to stay.
peyto lake on the icefields parkway provides an INCREDIBLE view from the road as you're WAY above it
man i love alberta!
by the way, we've stayed in Canmore several times, less touristy than Banff, but lots of great restaurants (if covid lockdowns haven't killed them) and places to stay.
03-21-21, 01:44 PM
#97
Since EVs don't have to operate on an ICE vehicle paradigm, where you stand beside your car and watch as it fuels, what you may want to take from this, is how many of those 12 hours represent you sitting there, purely waiting. If each stop is 30 minutes, but you only spend a few of those minutes tapping your watch, how much of your time have you actually wasted? This is why I emphasized flexibility and charging opportunities with EV ownership. It goes without saying, that ICE vehicles enjoy mature infrastructure, with a variety of utility. If you primarily spend your time doing unusually long, and/or sudden trips, then an EV probably won't work. However, I do think most people speculate/overstate how often these edge cases occur, when they enter an EV discussion, and it leads to a lot of repeated misinformation.
03-21-21, 01:45 PM
#98
Lexus Fanatic
Outstanding post Lets Drive. For me it gets very tiring people constantly bringing up charging times when for literally 99% of use cases being able to plug in makes your life easier. That assumes you own a space or have access to a charging port. For people that don't, no an EV is probably not for you.
It's a big country I've never been east of Montreal. I've been to most U.S. states I think over 30 even Alaska.
03-23-21, 07:32 AM
#99
Lexus Test Driver
Interesting article on how many EVs the grid can support today and in the future.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...id/4796477001/
Detroit Free Press
Do we have enough electricity to power the coming flood of electric vehicles? Yes, but the details matter.
First, don’t get snowed by automakers’ seemingly daily announcements of new EVs. The vast majority of vehicles built, sold, and especially driven in the United States will continue to use internal combustion engines for years to come.
EVs are growing fast, though, and the technology improves every day. If you don’t see them on the road regularly now, odds are you will soon.
And they use a lot of electricity. The 88 kWh battery that can carry a rear-drive Ford Mustang Mach-E 300 miles could power a modest house for several days, depending on the time of year and other variables.
A single commercial DC fast-charger — the kind that uses 400-800 volts and can charge a vehicle in 20-40 minutes — can draw as much power as 50 homes, according to the Department of Energy.
That worries some people, and not without reason. They fear we’re trading a reasonably reliable supply of petroleum for uncertain availability and unknown cost with electricity.
“The (electric) grid is well equipped to supply EVs today and in the near term,” said Samantha Houston, vehicles analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “It’s a nonissue.”
A 2020 report by the Department of Energy concludes, “through 2028, the overall power system, from generating through transmission, looks healthy up to about 24 million EVs.” That’s sixteen times the roughly 1.5 million EVs operating in the U.S. today.
“The transition to electric vehicles will take place over many years,” said Rob Threlkeld, General Motorsglobal manager of sustainable energy, supply and reliability. “Automakers are working with utilities to optimize it.”
The key is for EV owners to do most of their charging at night, when a lot of the electricity generating capacity that already exists is idle. Most utilities will offer low rates to encourage owners to charge then.Detroit-based utility DTE Energy customers charge about 15,000 electric vehicles in southeast Michigan and 22,000 throughout the state. About 90% of charging takes place outside peak hours, generally between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. Residential users can sign up for a discounted rate during that period, 11 cents a kWh under DTE’s EV plan, compared with 24 cents/kWh the rest of the day.
Charging at roadside commercial facilities will cost more than the discounted off-peak rate for homes. How much varies, depending on location, charging company and more.
“There are thousands of megawatts that are online during the day and offline at night. That can charge a lot of EVs.
“Optimizing the time of charging is the key to making use of existing generation capacity,” Threlkeld said.Off-peak charging is part of the reason EVs should be less expensive to operate than gasoline or diesel vehicles.
That’s because huge power plants that can handle midday surges operate less efficiently off-peak.
The electric grid was built to accommodate high demand like air conditioning in high-rise offices and factories on a hot afternoon. That capacity is essentially wasted the rest of the time, but EV charging can level the peaks and valleys.
The EPA assumes off-peak charging in projections that electricity for a Mach-E will cost $650 annually, compared with $1,800 in gasoline for an Edge, the closest gasoline-powered competitor in Ford’s lineup.
Similarly, Volkswagen’s new ID4 electric SUV should use $700 worth of electricity a year, versus $1,700 in gasoline for the Tiguan, the closest internal combustion comparison from VW. Both projections assume 15,000 miles driven annually, 55% of it on the highway.
‘Things get dicey' at 30 million EVsSome drivers worry about grid-busting peaks on holiday weekends, when huge numbers of people drive to family events or vacation getaways. However, many factories and offices close during that period, freeing up charging capacity for trips to grandma’s house or the cottage, Threlkeld said.
In addition, as solar generation becomes more common, some areas now offer bargain rates in the middle of the day, during maximum sunlight.
Armed with that information, a business fleet manager could tell her drivers to pull over and charge when prices dropped, and resume driving.XL Fleet, a company specializing in hybrid commercial vehicles, said its customers have logged 145 million miles, charging mostly at night. XL developed plug-in hybrid versions of Ford F-series pickups and other hybrids. The company just opened an engineering center in suburban Detroit. It has about 4,000 vehicles in service.
“Things get dicey” at about 30 million EVs on U.S. roads, a study by the Department of Energy says. To that end, utilities are upgrading generating, transmission and delivery capacity now for demand in the 2030s.
DTE expects about 300,000 EVs on the road in Michigan in 2030. It assumes nearly all will have at least 200 miles range — a modest assumption, given how fast EV technology is improving. With the average daily commute around 40 miles, the utility thinks some drivers may charge just once every 2-3 days.
Upgrades to the electric grid may even allow EV owners to sell electricity back to the utility during peak use, or to use vehicle batteries to power their homes during protracted outages.
“Utilities will need to make investments, but there’s time,” Houston said. “The change won’t happen overnight.
“Renewable power and electric vehicle technology reinforce each other.”
Follow Detroit Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan on Twitter @mark_phelan.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...id/4796477001/
Can the electrical grid handle a boom in electric vehicles?
Mark PhelanDetroit Free Press
Do we have enough electricity to power the coming flood of electric vehicles? Yes, but the details matter.
First, don’t get snowed by automakers’ seemingly daily announcements of new EVs. The vast majority of vehicles built, sold, and especially driven in the United States will continue to use internal combustion engines for years to come.
EVs are growing fast, though, and the technology improves every day. If you don’t see them on the road regularly now, odds are you will soon.
And they use a lot of electricity. The 88 kWh battery that can carry a rear-drive Ford Mustang Mach-E 300 miles could power a modest house for several days, depending on the time of year and other variables.
A single commercial DC fast-charger — the kind that uses 400-800 volts and can charge a vehicle in 20-40 minutes — can draw as much power as 50 homes, according to the Department of Energy.
That worries some people, and not without reason. They fear we’re trading a reasonably reliable supply of petroleum for uncertain availability and unknown cost with electricity.
Nighttime’s the right time
Relax, the experts, say. The U.S. has more than enough electric generating capacity to power every EV expected to hit the road through 2028, according to a recent study by the Department of Energy.“The (electric) grid is well equipped to supply EVs today and in the near term,” said Samantha Houston, vehicles analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “It’s a nonissue.”
A 2020 report by the Department of Energy concludes, “through 2028, the overall power system, from generating through transmission, looks healthy up to about 24 million EVs.” That’s sixteen times the roughly 1.5 million EVs operating in the U.S. today.
“The transition to electric vehicles will take place over many years,” said Rob Threlkeld, General Motorsglobal manager of sustainable energy, supply and reliability. “Automakers are working with utilities to optimize it.”
The key is for EV owners to do most of their charging at night, when a lot of the electricity generating capacity that already exists is idle. Most utilities will offer low rates to encourage owners to charge then.Detroit-based utility DTE Energy customers charge about 15,000 electric vehicles in southeast Michigan and 22,000 throughout the state. About 90% of charging takes place outside peak hours, generally between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. Residential users can sign up for a discounted rate during that period, 11 cents a kWh under DTE’s EV plan, compared with 24 cents/kWh the rest of the day.
Charging at roadside commercial facilities will cost more than the discounted off-peak rate for homes. How much varies, depending on location, charging company and more.
Fueling an EV can save you 60%
Off-peak electric demand can fall 50% from midday peaks, Threlkeld said.“There are thousands of megawatts that are online during the day and offline at night. That can charge a lot of EVs.
“Optimizing the time of charging is the key to making use of existing generation capacity,” Threlkeld said.Off-peak charging is part of the reason EVs should be less expensive to operate than gasoline or diesel vehicles.
That’s because huge power plants that can handle midday surges operate less efficiently off-peak.
The electric grid was built to accommodate high demand like air conditioning in high-rise offices and factories on a hot afternoon. That capacity is essentially wasted the rest of the time, but EV charging can level the peaks and valleys.
The EPA assumes off-peak charging in projections that electricity for a Mach-E will cost $650 annually, compared with $1,800 in gasoline for an Edge, the closest gasoline-powered competitor in Ford’s lineup.
Similarly, Volkswagen’s new ID4 electric SUV should use $700 worth of electricity a year, versus $1,700 in gasoline for the Tiguan, the closest internal combustion comparison from VW. Both projections assume 15,000 miles driven annually, 55% of it on the highway.
‘Things get dicey' at 30 million EVsSome drivers worry about grid-busting peaks on holiday weekends, when huge numbers of people drive to family events or vacation getaways. However, many factories and offices close during that period, freeing up charging capacity for trips to grandma’s house or the cottage, Threlkeld said.
In addition, as solar generation becomes more common, some areas now offer bargain rates in the middle of the day, during maximum sunlight.
Armed with that information, a business fleet manager could tell her drivers to pull over and charge when prices dropped, and resume driving.XL Fleet, a company specializing in hybrid commercial vehicles, said its customers have logged 145 million miles, charging mostly at night. XL developed plug-in hybrid versions of Ford F-series pickups and other hybrids. The company just opened an engineering center in suburban Detroit. It has about 4,000 vehicles in service.
“Things get dicey” at about 30 million EVs on U.S. roads, a study by the Department of Energy says. To that end, utilities are upgrading generating, transmission and delivery capacity now for demand in the 2030s.
DTE expects about 300,000 EVs on the road in Michigan in 2030. It assumes nearly all will have at least 200 miles range — a modest assumption, given how fast EV technology is improving. With the average daily commute around 40 miles, the utility thinks some drivers may charge just once every 2-3 days.
Upgrades to the electric grid may even allow EV owners to sell electricity back to the utility during peak use, or to use vehicle batteries to power their homes during protracted outages.
“Utilities will need to make investments, but there’s time,” Houston said. “The change won’t happen overnight.
“Renewable power and electric vehicle technology reinforce each other.”
Follow Detroit Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan on Twitter @mark_phelan.
03-25-21, 05:10 PM
#100
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
Edmunds retests tesla, ford, vw epa ratings... tesla fails, others exceed.
Edmunds.com: Testing Tesla's Range Anxiety.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...e-anxiety.html
Edmunds.com: Testing Tesla's Range Anxiety.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...e-anxiety.html
03-25-21, 05:16 PM
#101
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by article
Relax, the experts, say. The U.S. has more than enough electric generating capacity to power every EV expected to hit the road through 2028, according to a recent study by the Department of Energy.
, even at DOE? I won't get into the specifics of it because we're not supposed to discuss it, but many of the people in bureaucratic positions in Government are simply politicians in disguise.For proof, look at what just happened in Texas and Oklahoma......without a lot of extra demand from electric vehicles.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-25-21 at 05:23 PM.
03-25-21, 05:23 PM
#102
Lexus Test Driver
Edmunds retests tesla, ford, vw epa ratings... tesla fails, others exceed.
Edmunds.com: Testing Tesla's Range Anxiety.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...e-anxiety.html
Edmunds.com: Testing Tesla's Range Anxiety.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...e-anxiety.html
. In real world, its about 80% of the EPA range driving normal.
03-25-21, 05:26 PM
#103
Lexus Fanatic
Many different factors can affect a BEV's cruising-range...perhaps the most significant being weather/temperature and the number of power-draining accessories one is using.
03-25-21, 05:29 PM
#104
Lexus Fanatic
Edmunds retests tesla, ford, vw epa ratings... tesla fails, others exceed.
Edmunds.com: Testing Tesla's Range Anxiety.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...e-anxiety.html
Edmunds.com: Testing Tesla's Range Anxiety.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...e-anxiety.html
03-25-21, 07:51 PM
#105
Racer
Edmunds retests tesla, ford, vw epa ratings... tesla fails, others exceed.
Edmunds.com: Testing Tesla's Range Anxiety.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...e-anxiety.html
Edmunds.com: Testing Tesla's Range Anxiety.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tes...e-anxiety.html