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Thought everybody would find this interesting. I think he’s a little hard on the LS here, if he were comparing a W220 S500 instead of that W140 then all the shortcomings of the Lexus he pointed out would be present in the S Class too. The door jambs of my LS460s were better finished than those in my S560 too...
Not sure the year in the MB. I do think that Lexus fans really underestimate how much Germans consumer really don’t care all that much about the Lexus LS.
Not sure the year in the MB. I do think that Lexus fans really underestimate how much Germans consumer could careless about the Lexus LS.
I believe that Mercedes is much more expensive.
It’s a 96 or so.
I don’t agree. If you look on the S Class forums, tons of people came from the LS, there are also people who have both cars, have an S Class coupe and a LS sedan. Remember too that the LS400 is the big reason why they made the S Class smaller and cheaper when the W220 came around in 2000.
This guy brought up a good subject, but his execution is shallow and rather ignorant. I don't know how many face facepalms I can give my forehead without injuring myself.
It is a bad idea to compare any facelifted LS430 sold after September 2003, which corrected some of the styling deficiencies of the UCF30/XF30. You need to use original 2001 model, to make a more direct comparison.
I have the whole design story on the LS430, which began in 1996 and concluded in December 1997. At the time this was the incumbent Mercedes-Benz flagship coupe, so they looked in this direction and chose to copy it, versus the W140 sedan.
Upon LS 430 reveal in January 2000, Bruno Sacco, the then recently retired head of Mercedes-Benz Design from 1975 to 1999, deeply criticized Lexus for the obvious copying. It was warranted, as I have many photos I will be sharing from 1997 what led
I'm not with him on a couple of things. First, IMO, the cars are not as similar as he implies...I can tell the two of them apart immediately. The original LS400 was actually more of a closer Mercedes-clone in styling. Second, he sounds a little arrogant in accusing Lexus engineers of stating one thing and meaning another on the general aim of the LS430 design...I don't believe that for a second. He is correct, though, that the LS has an interior and seats that are more suited to typical American taste in luxury-cars, not the sportier European taste.
Upon LS 430 reveal in January 2000, Bruno Sacco, the then recently retired head of Mercedes-Benz Design from 1975 to 1999, deeply criticized Lexus for the obvious copying. It was warranted, as I have many photos I will be sharing from 1997 what led
Odd, considering that, at least IMO, the LS400 was more of a Mercedes styling-clone than the 430.
I don’t agree. If you look on the S Class forums, tons of people came from the LS, there are also people who have both cars, have an S Class coupe and a LS sedan. Remember too that the LS400 is the big reason why they made the S Class smaller and cheaper when the W220 came around in 2000.
No doubt the LS400 was influential. MB however did successfully distance itself with the S class W220 had stratospheric price spread, 13 worldwide engines with four, V12s. Quite a few innovations as well.
I don’t agree. If you look on the S Class forums, tons of people came from the LS, there are also people who have both cars, have an S Class coupe and a LS sedan. Remember too that the LS400 is the big reason why they made the S Class smaller and cheaper when the W220 came around in 2000.
W220 came out in October 1998, April 1999 in USA. Not 2000. These where everywhere in 1999, even in music videos. And that wasn't the reason, this car was the reason below. E38 BMW 7-Series, 730i Prototype (1993)
W220 is called the best 7-Series Mercedes ever made. MB was threatened by E38 success in 1990s and went sleeker, smaller to appease domestic German market. Bear in mind W220 was finished in 1995, when LS 400 sales went south.
1999MY BMW 740i (Facelift shown)
BMW did the opposite with E65 launched for 2002, in wanting a big bodied sedan with an imposing presence.
That copied the W140 Mk. II sedan (1994-96), while LS 430 copied the C140 coupe. W140 was updated in 1994 and 1996 (after '98 LS was dialed in), but by coincidence, Lexus predicted the S-Class changes for 1997 when designing 1998 LS 400.
No doubt the LS400 was influential. MB however did successfully distance itself with the S class W220 had stratospheric price spread, 13 worldwide engines with four, V12s. Quite a few innovations as well.
The opposite, as the price gap narrowed significantly between LS 400/430 and S430. W140 was way more expensive. W220 was lesser quality and started slide in leadership against LS. In Toronto and Vancouver, I do imagine W220 was king. (Canadians lean very Euro?).
The former Italian chief designer of Mercedes-Benz in the 70s-1990s criticized the W220 as "a beautiful design that cannot be saved by poor quality technology". It was his last S-class.
But as usual, the tech and engine range was impressive regardless of quality issues.
The opposite, as the price gap narrowed significantly between LS 400/430 and S430.
that’s why I referenced s-class price range. S class price range expanded considerably since 1990. While Lexus was offering a LS430...Mercedes with its two V8 430,500, and V12-600 then the S55 with AMG and supercharging along with new options such as AWD at some point...S class was separating its brand and attracting a higher priced demographic of buyer. IMO respectfully.
that’s why I said s-class price range. S class price range expanded considerably since 1990.
Oh, do you mean the gap between starting price and top model? Price range did not for W220, where gap between '01 S430 and S600 was smaller in 2000 than in 1998. I guess if you include later end of the run 2006 S65 AMG V12 ($170k), then maybe (against $65k S350).
I was thinking about initial W220 run from 1999-2001 (S430 $71k+ vs S600 V12 at $115k+ USD) against $65-70k S320 vs $134k S600 W140, which is nearly double the base W140.
The gap is wild now, because MB retook their crown in 2010 and never looked back.. They can charge whatever they want.
This concept was revealed in the fall of 1996 and gave the LS430 design team an advance look at the W220, then testing in camo. F200 Headlight (1996l W220 Headlight (1998) LS 430 Headlight (2000)
C140 Headlight
Even though LS 430 design was set in late 1997 and frozen in 1998, a lot changes were still made in smaller details to closely benchmark competition. The fully production spec LS 430 (showroom grade), was 100% complete in early 1999.
I really don't know how to explain this very well, because cars are designed in multiple stages and I can get long winded. I am going to upload photos ASAP from the design story printed in 2000 of the various proposals and what led to the final LS 430.
Since you posted the picture of that old Mercedes, Carmaker, and we're on the subject of Mercedes look-alikes, Here's an example of a first-generation (early-1990s) Mazda Protege...I owned one for some 5 years. Some reviewers accused it of copying the Merc......and they might have had a point.
02-25-21, 06:01 PM
Carwizard Lexus LS430 Mercedes S(CL)500 Comparison
