Carwizard Lexus LS430 Mercedes S(CL)500 Comparison
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Carwizard Lexus LS430 Mercedes S(CL)500 Comparison
Thought everybody would find this interesting. I think he’s a little hard on the LS here, if he were comparing a W220 S500 instead of that W140 then all the shortcomings of the Lexus he pointed out would be present in the S Class too. The door jambs of my LS460s were better finished than those in my S560 too...
#2
Lexus Fanatic
Not sure the year in the MB. I do think that Lexus fans really underestimate how much Germans consumer really don’t care all that much about the Lexus LS.
I believe that Mercedes is much more expensive.
I believe that Mercedes is much more expensive.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 02-25-21 at 06:46 PM.
#3
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I don’t agree. If you look on the S Class forums, tons of people came from the LS, there are also people who have both cars, have an S Class coupe and a LS sedan. Remember too that the LS400 is the big reason why they made the S Class smaller and cheaper when the W220 came around in 2000.
#5
This guy brought up a good subject, but his execution is shallow and rather ignorant. I don't know how many face facepalms I can give my forehead without injuring myself.
It is a bad idea to compare any facelifted LS430 sold after September 2003, which corrected some of the styling deficiencies of the UCF30/XF30. You need to use original 2001 model, to make a more direct comparison.
I have the whole design story on the LS430, which began in 1996 and concluded in December 1997. At the time this was the incumbent Mercedes-Benz flagship coupe, so they looked in this direction and chose to copy it, versus the W140 sedan.
Upon LS 430 reveal in January 2000, Bruno Sacco, the then recently retired head of Mercedes-Benz Design from 1975 to 1999, deeply criticized Lexus for the obvious copying. It was warranted, as I have many photos I will be sharing from 1997 what led
It is a bad idea to compare any facelifted LS430 sold after September 2003, which corrected some of the styling deficiencies of the UCF30/XF30. You need to use original 2001 model, to make a more direct comparison.
I have the whole design story on the LS430, which began in 1996 and concluded in December 1997. At the time this was the incumbent Mercedes-Benz flagship coupe, so they looked in this direction and chose to copy it, versus the W140 sedan.
Upon LS 430 reveal in January 2000, Bruno Sacco, the then recently retired head of Mercedes-Benz Design from 1975 to 1999, deeply criticized Lexus for the obvious copying. It was warranted, as I have many photos I will be sharing from 1997 what led
#6
Lexus Fanatic
I'm not with him on a couple of things. First, IMO, the cars are not as similar as he implies...I can tell the two of them apart immediately. The original LS400 was actually more of a closer Mercedes-clone in styling. Second, he sounds a little arrogant in accusing Lexus engineers of stating one thing and meaning another on the general aim of the LS430 design...I don't believe that for a second. He is correct, though, that the LS has an interior and seats that are more suited to typical American taste in luxury-cars, not the sportier European taste.
#7
Lexus Fanatic
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#8
Lexus Fanatic
. The door jambs of my LS460s were better finished than those in my S560 too...
https://youtu.be/K5CW-ev_Cao
https://youtu.be/K5CW-ev_Cao
I don’t agree. If you look on the S Class forums, tons of people came from the LS, there are also people who have both cars, have an S Class coupe and a LS sedan. Remember too that the LS400 is the big reason why they made the S Class smaller and cheaper when the W220 came around in 2000.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 02-25-21 at 07:14 PM.
#9
It’s a 96 or so.
I don’t agree. If you look on the S Class forums, tons of people came from the LS, there are also people who have both cars, have an S Class coupe and a LS sedan. Remember too that the LS400 is the big reason why they made the S Class smaller and cheaper when the W220 came around in 2000.
I don’t agree. If you look on the S Class forums, tons of people came from the LS, there are also people who have both cars, have an S Class coupe and a LS sedan. Remember too that the LS400 is the big reason why they made the S Class smaller and cheaper when the W220 came around in 2000.
E38 BMW 7-Series, 730i Prototype (1993)
W220 is called the best 7-Series Mercedes ever made. MB was threatened by E38 success in 1990s and went sleeker, smaller to appease domestic German market. Bear in mind W220 was finished in 1995, when LS 400 sales went south.
1999MY BMW 740i (Facelift shown)
BMW did the opposite with E65 launched for 2002, in wanting a big bodied sedan with an imposing presence.
E65 7-Series (2001)
Benz and BMW copied each other too.
E38 (1994)
W220 S-Class Prototype (1998)
#10
W140 Mk III: Built June 1996 to August 1998 (1996 Press Photo)
W140 Mk III (1996-98)
©️ 1997 Toyota Motor Sales USA (1998 LS 400)
That copied the W140 Mk. II sedan (1994-96), while LS 430 copied the C140 coupe. W140 was updated in 1994 and 1996 (after '98 LS was dialed in), but by coincidence, Lexus predicted the S-Class changes for 1997 when designing 1998 LS 400.
C140 CL 600 (1997)
'01 LS 430 Prototype (Photographed 1999)
C140 CL 600
C140 CL 600 V12
C140 500 SEC (1992)
This is not really a debate to be had.
The 1990, 1993 and 1995 MY LS 400s were less obvious, even if detractors were reaching with the similarities.
W126 (1985-1991 version)
LS 400 (1989)
LS 400 Mk.2 (1992)
2nd Gen LS 400 (1994)
Lexus successfully combined Toyota, BMW, and MB design cues of the 1986-87 era for the 1990 LS 400.
W124 Sedan (1985)
E32 7-Series (1986) Another Influence
Toyota Crown
X80 Cressida
X80 Cressida.
There were many influences for the 1990 LS400 and not solely MB. LS430 was a lazy, heavily derivative styling effort.
Last edited by Carmaker1; 02-26-21 at 01:35 PM.
#11
The former Italian chief designer of Mercedes-Benz in the 70s-1990s criticized the W220 as "a beautiful design that cannot be saved by poor quality technology". It was his last S-class.
But as usual, the tech and engine range was impressive regardless of quality issues.
#12
Lexus Fanatic
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 02-25-21 at 09:00 PM.
#13
I was thinking about initial W220 run from 1999-2001 (S430 $71k+ vs S600 V12 at $115k+ USD) against $65-70k S320 vs $134k S600 W140, which is nearly double the base W140.
The gap is wild now, because MB retook their crown in 2010 and never looked back.. They can charge whatever they want.
Last edited by Carmaker1; 02-25-21 at 09:11 PM.
#14
This concept was revealed in the fall of 1996 and gave the LS430 design team an advance look at the W220, then testing in camo.
F200 Headlight (1996l
W220 Headlight (1998)
LS 430 Headlight (2000)
C140 Headlight
Even though LS 430 design was set in late 1997 and frozen in 1998, a lot changes were still made in smaller details to closely benchmark competition. The fully production spec LS 430 (showroom grade), was 100% complete in early 1999.
I really don't know how to explain this very well, because cars are designed in multiple stages and I can get long winded. I am going to upload photos ASAP from the design story printed in 2000 of the various proposals and what led to the final LS 430.
#15
Lexus Fanatic
Since you posted the picture of that old Mercedes, Carmaker, and we're on the subject of Mercedes look-alikes, Here's an example of a first-generation (early-1990s) Mazda Protege...I owned one for some 5 years. Some reviewers accused it of copying the Merc......and they might have had a point.