EV rationalization
03-10-21, 11:56 AM
#121
Lexus Champion
I still haven't seen a real case made as to WHY we want to go from fossil fuel to electric vehicles. Scientists are in agreement that if the US got off of ALL FF NOW the effect on the temperature in 2100 is almost unmeasureable. So what's the point of totally upending the mature, well functioning gasoline/diesel supply system we have developed over the last century? I think two main reasons, 1) the tech industry sees the golden opportunity to take over one of the largest industries in the world (vehicles) for their own economic gain, and 2) governments like the idea of EVs and self driving cars as a way to get people out of their private vehicles ($$) and into more dense living arrangements where they can be forced into using public transportation. And I still have not seen an honest assessment of total life cycle costs and environmental effects of converting the entire vehicle fleet to EVs. Right now it is being sold as a win/win/win for every stakeholder in the chain, but things never work out like that, there are always downsides (sometimes massive) when the next best-thing-since-sliced-bread turns out to be a horror story. I believe we are rushing into this EV thing without fully informing the public what this will mean for their transportation in the coming decades, and the ultimate cost. People say they are all for 'going green' to help the environment, but digging deeper into that shows people are willing to spend $50 a year or so to do that, they don't realize but the cost will be in the many thousands of dollars per year for going all EV and renewables. Some honesty would be refreshing.
As far as self driving cars are concerned, I just don't get it. I'm 70 and still enjoy driving my three cars and my Yamaha FZ-10 sport bike. Why a young person would want to get in a tin can and have it drive them to wherever they are going is still a mystery to me. Have we raised kids to be that lazy that they can't participate in their own transportation? On Monday I had to drive 225 miles for a medical treatment (do it every month), and then drive back. I enjoy the time on the road, I can get to know the car, it's capabilities and I enjoy actually driving it. On the return trip I decided to take I-10 west from Houston, big mistake as the interstate is totally being reconstructed for 30 miles or so. I got off to fuel up and the normal ramp to get back on no longer existed, nothing but orange barrels and cones for two or three miles. Got to a stop sign and it said 'frontage road closed', so no way to get back on the road so I had to go over the overpass and double back six miles to find an open entrance ramp. There is no vehicle today that could have navigated the route, no lane markings, some dirt stretches, no road signs, road graders/pickup trucks all over the place, you had to think your way through the situation. A fully autonomous driving car with no steering wheel would most likely have pulled over and decided it couldn't do the job. No thanks. I'll ask the same question, Why? Why do we need to take ourselves out of the equation? People say SAFETY, but we have the technology today to get the dangerous drivers off the road, we just have decided we don't want to do it. So let's make the cars drive themselves! More nonsense.
Fossil fuel vehicles will be around for many, many decades, I won't have to worry about EVs or self driving cars in my lifetime, but its disconcerting to see people jump on these bandwagons without really thinking through what they are trying to do. They do the first stage thinking, but not the subsequent stages.
As far as self driving cars are concerned, I just don't get it. I'm 70 and still enjoy driving my three cars and my Yamaha FZ-10 sport bike. Why a young person would want to get in a tin can and have it drive them to wherever they are going is still a mystery to me. Have we raised kids to be that lazy that they can't participate in their own transportation? On Monday I had to drive 225 miles for a medical treatment (do it every month), and then drive back. I enjoy the time on the road, I can get to know the car, it's capabilities and I enjoy actually driving it. On the return trip I decided to take I-10 west from Houston, big mistake as the interstate is totally being reconstructed for 30 miles or so. I got off to fuel up and the normal ramp to get back on no longer existed, nothing but orange barrels and cones for two or three miles. Got to a stop sign and it said 'frontage road closed', so no way to get back on the road so I had to go over the overpass and double back six miles to find an open entrance ramp. There is no vehicle today that could have navigated the route, no lane markings, some dirt stretches, no road signs, road graders/pickup trucks all over the place, you had to think your way through the situation. A fully autonomous driving car with no steering wheel would most likely have pulled over and decided it couldn't do the job. No thanks. I'll ask the same question, Why? Why do we need to take ourselves out of the equation? People say SAFETY, but we have the technology today to get the dangerous drivers off the road, we just have decided we don't want to do it. So let's make the cars drive themselves! More nonsense.
Fossil fuel vehicles will be around for many, many decades, I won't have to worry about EVs or self driving cars in my lifetime, but its disconcerting to see people jump on these bandwagons without really thinking through what they are trying to do. They do the first stage thinking, but not the subsequent stages.
03-10-21, 12:00 PM
#122
Not going to happen. They tried swap outs already and they were a financial failure. Battery/container are an integral part of every EV and is the reason why Tesla has the highest NTSB ratings of any car on the road. I love my 2 LS400s but ICE will eventually be replaced by EVs. I'm really sorry that Lexus did not pursue EVs.
03-10-21, 12:22 PM
#123
Lexus Test Driver
I still haven't seen a real case made as to WHY we want to go from fossil fuel to electric vehicles. Scientists are in agreement that if the US got off of ALL FF NOW the effect on the temperature in 2100 is almost unmeasureable. So what's the point of totally upending the mature, well functioning gasoline/diesel supply system we have developed over the last century? I think two main reasons, 1) the tech industry sees the golden opportunity to take over one of the largest industries in the world (vehicles) for their own economic gain, and 2) governments like the idea of EVs and self driving cars as a way to get people out of their private vehicles ($$) and into more dense living arrangements where they can be forced into using public transportation. And I still have not seen an honest assessment of total life cycle costs and environmental effects of converting the entire vehicle fleet to EVs. Right now it is being sold as a win/win/win for every stakeholder in the chain, but things never work out like that, there are always downsides (sometimes massive) when the next best-thing-since-sliced-bread turns out to be a horror story. I believe we are rushing into this EV thing without fully informing the public what this will mean for their transportation in the coming decades, and the ultimate cost. People say they are all for 'going green' to help the environment, but digging deeper into that shows people are willing to spend $50 a year or so to do that, they don't realize but the cost will be in the many thousands of dollars per year for going all EV and renewables. Some honesty would be refreshing.
As far as self driving cars are concerned, I just don't get it. I'm 70 and still enjoy driving my three cars and my Yamaha FZ-10 sport bike. Why a young person would want to get in a tin can and have it drive them to wherever they are going is still a mystery to me. Have we raised kids to be that lazy that they can't participate in their own transportation? On Monday I had to drive 225 miles for a medical treatment (do it every month), and then drive back. I enjoy the time on the road, I can get to know the car, it's capabilities and I enjoy actually driving it. On the return trip I decided to take I-10 west from Houston, big mistake as the interstate is totally being reconstructed for 30 miles or so. I got off to fuel up and the normal ramp to get back on no longer existed, nothing but orange barrels and cones for two or three miles. Got to a stop sign and it said 'frontage road closed', so no way to get back on the road so I had to go over the overpass and double back six miles to find an open entrance ramp. There is no vehicle today that could have navigated the route, no lane markings, some dirt stretches, no road signs, road graders/pickup trucks all over the place, you had to think your way through the situation. A fully autonomous driving car with no steering wheel would most likely have pulled over and decided it couldn't do the job. No thanks. I'll ask the same question, Why? Why do we need to take ourselves out of the equation? People say SAFETY, but we have the technology today to get the dangerous drivers off the road, we just have decided we don't want to do it. So let's make the cars drive themselves! More nonsense.
Fossil fuel vehicles will be around for many, many decades, I won't have to worry about EVs or self driving cars in my lifetime, but its disconcerting to see people jump on these bandwagons without really thinking through what they are trying to do. They do the first stage thinking, but not the subsequent stages.
As far as self driving cars are concerned, I just don't get it. I'm 70 and still enjoy driving my three cars and my Yamaha FZ-10 sport bike. Why a young person would want to get in a tin can and have it drive them to wherever they are going is still a mystery to me. Have we raised kids to be that lazy that they can't participate in their own transportation? On Monday I had to drive 225 miles for a medical treatment (do it every month), and then drive back. I enjoy the time on the road, I can get to know the car, it's capabilities and I enjoy actually driving it. On the return trip I decided to take I-10 west from Houston, big mistake as the interstate is totally being reconstructed for 30 miles or so. I got off to fuel up and the normal ramp to get back on no longer existed, nothing but orange barrels and cones for two or three miles. Got to a stop sign and it said 'frontage road closed', so no way to get back on the road so I had to go over the overpass and double back six miles to find an open entrance ramp. There is no vehicle today that could have navigated the route, no lane markings, some dirt stretches, no road signs, road graders/pickup trucks all over the place, you had to think your way through the situation. A fully autonomous driving car with no steering wheel would most likely have pulled over and decided it couldn't do the job. No thanks. I'll ask the same question, Why? Why do we need to take ourselves out of the equation? People say SAFETY, but we have the technology today to get the dangerous drivers off the road, we just have decided we don't want to do it. So let's make the cars drive themselves! More nonsense.
Fossil fuel vehicles will be around for many, many decades, I won't have to worry about EVs or self driving cars in my lifetime, but its disconcerting to see people jump on these bandwagons without really thinking through what they are trying to do. They do the first stage thinking, but not the subsequent stages.
https://theconversation.com/if-we-st...e-change-78882
03-10-21, 12:36 PM
#124
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
I made zero mention of people making money on a "robotaxi". If you pay event he slightest attention to where this is all headed the self driving business model is about a constant revenue stream for auto makers and possibly companies like Apple. I suggest doing some basic research instead of making silly comments.
Elon Musk says Tesla owners could make $30,000 in robotaxi network (usatoday.com)
Elon Musk Promised 1 Million Tesla Robotaxis by the End of 2020. Where Are They? (thedrive.com)
03-10-21, 12:43 PM
#125
Lexus Test Driver
can't imagine where i got the idea, maybe from the master hypester himself:
Elon Musk says Tesla owners could make $30,000 in robotaxi network (usatoday.com)
Elon Musk Promised 1 Million Tesla Robotaxis by the End of 2020. Where Are They? (thedrive.com)
Elon Musk says Tesla owners could make $30,000 in robotaxi network (usatoday.com)
Elon Musk Promised 1 Million Tesla Robotaxis by the End of 2020. Where Are They? (thedrive.com)
Autopilot is extremely good in long-distance driving and helps with fatigue by a lot. Would not trust it for city driving where people randomly run into the street and crazy drivers cut you off constantly.
03-10-21, 12:44 PM
#126
One question to all the EV owners here. How many of you have an EV as your only means of transportation? I would guess most have an EV as second or third car so charging isn't a concern.
The reason I ask is I am an empty nester and my wife and I share one vehicle.
The reason I ask is I am an empty nester and my wife and I share one vehicle.
03-10-21, 01:36 PM
#127
Lexus Fanatic
The Tesla beta looks like it will be going public this summer, subscription model. Which is what I was talking about not about individuals lending their robo cars out. Every auto maker (and many tech companies) are going to attempt a version of this they can't resist the potential revenue.
Apple badly wants in on this action but they are finding out actually doing it is monumental. Last I read they are tentatively targeting 2024 for their self driving car. By then Tesla will have trillions of miles of telemetry and be many revisions into the software. Tesla has their own, in house custom processor this is something Apple can potentially compete with since Apple now designs their own CPUs.
Apple badly wants in on this action but they are finding out actually doing it is monumental. Last I read they are tentatively targeting 2024 for their self driving car. By then Tesla will have trillions of miles of telemetry and be many revisions into the software. Tesla has their own, in house custom processor this is something Apple can potentially compete with since Apple now designs their own CPUs.
03-10-21, 01:37 PM
#128
I consider myself fortunate, I own a 2016 Model X 75D and 2017 Model S 75D. EVs for us were a way to commute to work faster by using the carpool lanes and when I calculated how much gas we were putting into our GX 470, It was an easy decision to move over to EVs. EVs are our primary means of transport.
We take a 1-2 long trips throughout the year and when we stop to charge (~2.5hrs) we refuel our bodies at the same time and take bio breaks (OC to Vegas and back). 30 minutes at a Supercharger gets me to the next charging location or my destination. I have a two car garage and two chargers tied to a 50A breaker that is able to add ~28miles/hr to the battery. The Tesla chargers are smart and can share the power and they know when one is finished charging and the other can grab the available power. It's very rare that we run the battery below 30 miles available. Once when we did this and plugged both in at night we had a full charge by morning (charging started at 10:30pm for lowest SCE rates).
I also have my remaining Lexus (6 previous models), a 2016 GSF for the refinement and ICE sounds I miss in the Teslas. It's still slower than my Model X but I don't care, it's staying in my garage for the long run.
We take a 1-2 long trips throughout the year and when we stop to charge (~2.5hrs) we refuel our bodies at the same time and take bio breaks (OC to Vegas and back). 30 minutes at a Supercharger gets me to the next charging location or my destination. I have a two car garage and two chargers tied to a 50A breaker that is able to add ~28miles/hr to the battery. The Tesla chargers are smart and can share the power and they know when one is finished charging and the other can grab the available power. It's very rare that we run the battery below 30 miles available. Once when we did this and plugged both in at night we had a full charge by morning (charging started at 10:30pm for lowest SCE rates).
I also have my remaining Lexus (6 previous models), a 2016 GSF for the refinement and ICE sounds I miss in the Teslas. It's still slower than my Model X but I don't care, it's staying in my garage for the long run.
03-10-21, 02:55 PM
#129
The self driving scam is generating a lot of revenue for Tesla, and I can't even blame them for profiting off of suckers that fall for it, lol. Ditto for other companies working on similar tech, as long as it bring in the cheeze from the investors and possibly the government, more power to them.
As far as EVs, they are clearly a compromise for many people, so they need to offer something that ICE cars don't in order for more people to accept them. For instance, I could certainly adopt to an EV if I wanted to, but I won't even consider adopting based on fuel savings alone. High performance is a great reason to consider an EV, and right now Tesla is the only one that has the performance that rivals even the fastest ICE cars, but then Tesla comes with two serious shortcomings - awful interiors and questionable build quality.
I am waiting to see what BMW does, there are rumors that the next M5 is going to be electric, which in turn means that the rest of their M line up is going to be electric. If they offer the same level of quality interiors as I'm accustomed to in their petrol models and with even higher level of performance, I'll happily get one.
Then there is one more thing to consider, electric cars are all the rage right now, but eventually the hype calms down. Take hybrids for instance, they were all the rage in the early/mid 00s, and a lot of people bought hybrids just for the sake of getting a hybrid, overlooking all the g-d awful qualities of these early hybrids. Garbage like the Lexus CT and HS comes to mind, with laundry detergent container grade of interior plastics, disposable build quality and anemic drivetrains, and yet people still desired them. Now that the hype has calmed down, people buy hybrids on actual merit instead of hype, and most hybrids are no longer quirky but rather just regular cars with hybrid drivetrain.
It's kind of the same with electric cars. Back in 2013 when electrics were completely new, I wanted one more than anything. I couldn't afford a Tesla, so I tried getting a Fiat 500e, but it was only available in Cali. I ended up putting a deposit on a Nissan Leaf, but my dealer couldn't get me one, so they ended up returning my deposit. Thinking back to it, I am glad that the deal fell through, otherwise I would be stuck with a dreadful crapbucket once the novelty of the electric drivetrain wore off.
As far as EVs, they are clearly a compromise for many people, so they need to offer something that ICE cars don't in order for more people to accept them. For instance, I could certainly adopt to an EV if I wanted to, but I won't even consider adopting based on fuel savings alone. High performance is a great reason to consider an EV, and right now Tesla is the only one that has the performance that rivals even the fastest ICE cars, but then Tesla comes with two serious shortcomings - awful interiors and questionable build quality.
I am waiting to see what BMW does, there are rumors that the next M5 is going to be electric, which in turn means that the rest of their M line up is going to be electric. If they offer the same level of quality interiors as I'm accustomed to in their petrol models and with even higher level of performance, I'll happily get one.
Then there is one more thing to consider, electric cars are all the rage right now, but eventually the hype calms down. Take hybrids for instance, they were all the rage in the early/mid 00s, and a lot of people bought hybrids just for the sake of getting a hybrid, overlooking all the g-d awful qualities of these early hybrids. Garbage like the Lexus CT and HS comes to mind, with laundry detergent container grade of interior plastics, disposable build quality and anemic drivetrains, and yet people still desired them. Now that the hype has calmed down, people buy hybrids on actual merit instead of hype, and most hybrids are no longer quirky but rather just regular cars with hybrid drivetrain.
It's kind of the same with electric cars. Back in 2013 when electrics were completely new, I wanted one more than anything. I couldn't afford a Tesla, so I tried getting a Fiat 500e, but it was only available in Cali. I ended up putting a deposit on a Nissan Leaf, but my dealer couldn't get me one, so they ended up returning my deposit. Thinking back to it, I am glad that the deal fell through, otherwise I would be stuck with a dreadful crapbucket once the novelty of the electric drivetrain wore off.
Last edited by Och; 03-10-21 at 03:43 PM.
03-10-21, 03:41 PM
#130
Lexus Fanatic
03-10-21, 03:45 PM
#132
Lexus Fanatic
03-10-21, 04:08 PM
#133
Lexus Fanatic
As far as self driving cars are concerned, I just don't get it. I'm 70 and still enjoy driving my three cars and my Yamaha FZ-10 sport bike. Why a young person would want to get in a tin can and have it drive them to wherever they are going is still a mystery to me. Have we raised kids to be that lazy that they can't participate in their own transportation? On Monday I had to drive 225 miles for a medical treatment (do it every month), and then drive back. I enjoy the time on the road, I can get to know the car, it's capabilities and I enjoy actually driving it. .
The appeal of self driving cars to me is because it adds productive time to my day. My days are spent driving between appointments and I am under a constant barrage of calls, texts, emails etc that I have to stay on top of. The time spent driving a car is time I can spend on the phone or texting over voice, but emails pile up and so do text messages to a certain extent. Now through COVID my day is littered with Zoom calls, and yes I participate in Zoom calls while driving (I have a dash mount for my phone, etc). I have no choice, there just aren't enough hours in the day for me not to.
Time that the car could drive itself is time that gets added back into my day. I use my Mercedes' distronic plus on the highway even thought I do still have to pay attention because it adds a layer of security for me. If I truly could just hand the car over to itself even just on the highway it would let me get through those emails and those texts and those zoom calls and whatever and add meaningful productivity to that time. Then when I can drive or when I have to drive, I'm happy to.
Life today is really frenetic, way moreso than it used to be. Its 7:09 and I have literally been on the phone or on a zoom call since 9AM. I did go out and get lunch with someone, but I was on a call all the way out there, sitting in the parking lot at the restaurant and all the way back. My car being my driver would make my days a lot better.
03-10-21, 04:34 PM
#134
Lexus Fanatic
I still haven't seen a real case made as to WHY we want to go from fossil fuel to electric vehicles. Scientists are in agreement that if the US got off of ALL FF NOW the effect on the temperature in 2100 is almost unmeasureable. So what's the point of totally upending the mature, well functioning gasoline/diesel supply system we have developed over the last century? I think two main reasons, 1) the tech industry sees the golden opportunity to take over one of the largest industries in the world (vehicles) for their own economic gain, and 2) governments like the idea of EVs and self driving cars as a way to get people out of their private vehicles ($$) and into more dense living arrangements where they can be forced into using public transportation. And I still have not seen an honest assessment of total life cycle costs and environmental effects of converting the entire vehicle fleet to EVs. Right now it is being sold as a win/win/win for every stakeholder in the chain, but things never work out like that, there are always downsides (sometimes massive) when the next best-thing-since-sliced-bread turns out to be a horror story. I believe we are rushing into this EV thing without fully informing the public what this will mean for their transportation in the coming decades, and the ultimate cost. People say they are all for 'going green' to help the environment, but digging deeper into that shows people are willing to spend $50 a year or so to do that, they don't realize but the cost will be in the many thousands of dollars per year for going all EV and renewables. Some honesty would be refreshing.
As far as self driving cars are concerned, I just don't get it. I'm 70 and still enjoy driving my three cars and my Yamaha FZ-10 sport bike. Why a young person would want to get in a tin can and have it drive them to wherever they are going is still a mystery to me. Have we raised kids to be that lazy that they can't participate in their own transportation? On Monday I had to drive 225 miles for a medical treatment (do it every month), and then drive back. I enjoy the time on the road, I can get to know the car, it's capabilities and I enjoy actually driving it. On the return trip I decided to take I-10 west from Houston, big mistake as the interstate is totally being reconstructed for 30 miles or so. I got off to fuel up and the normal ramp to get back on no longer existed, nothing but orange barrels and cones for two or three miles. Got to a stop sign and it said 'frontage road closed', so no way to get back on the road so I had to go over the overpass and double back six miles to find an open entrance ramp. There is no vehicle today that could have navigated the route, no lane markings, some dirt stretches, no road signs, road graders/pickup trucks all over the place, you had to think your way through the situation. A fully autonomous driving car with no steering wheel would most likely have pulled over and decided it couldn't do the job. No thanks. I'll ask the same question, Why? Why do we need to take ourselves out of the equation? People say SAFETY, but we have the technology today to get the dangerous drivers off the road, we just have decided we don't want to do it. So let's make the cars drive themselves! More nonsense.
Fossil fuel vehicles will be around for many, many decades, I won't have to worry about EVs or self driving cars in my lifetime, but its disconcerting to see people jump on these bandwagons without really thinking through what they are trying to do. They do the first stage thinking, but not the subsequent stages.
As far as self driving cars are concerned, I just don't get it. I'm 70 and still enjoy driving my three cars and my Yamaha FZ-10 sport bike. Why a young person would want to get in a tin can and have it drive them to wherever they are going is still a mystery to me. Have we raised kids to be that lazy that they can't participate in their own transportation? On Monday I had to drive 225 miles for a medical treatment (do it every month), and then drive back. I enjoy the time on the road, I can get to know the car, it's capabilities and I enjoy actually driving it. On the return trip I decided to take I-10 west from Houston, big mistake as the interstate is totally being reconstructed for 30 miles or so. I got off to fuel up and the normal ramp to get back on no longer existed, nothing but orange barrels and cones for two or three miles. Got to a stop sign and it said 'frontage road closed', so no way to get back on the road so I had to go over the overpass and double back six miles to find an open entrance ramp. There is no vehicle today that could have navigated the route, no lane markings, some dirt stretches, no road signs, road graders/pickup trucks all over the place, you had to think your way through the situation. A fully autonomous driving car with no steering wheel would most likely have pulled over and decided it couldn't do the job. No thanks. I'll ask the same question, Why? Why do we need to take ourselves out of the equation? People say SAFETY, but we have the technology today to get the dangerous drivers off the road, we just have decided we don't want to do it. So let's make the cars drive themselves! More nonsense.
Fossil fuel vehicles will be around for many, many decades, I won't have to worry about EVs or self driving cars in my lifetime, but its disconcerting to see people jump on these bandwagons without really thinking through what they are trying to do. They do the first stage thinking, but not the subsequent stages.
Virtually everything you said (at least 95%) is right on the money. There's little if anything I can add to it....so I won't.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
Life today is really frenetic, way more so than it used to be.
I'm not quite Evitzee's age (close)...but I find that, while electronic safety-aids are nice to have (one reason why I got my GX, with its blind-zone and cross-traffic-alerts), most of the act of driving is actually good for one's brain, mind, and co-ordination...like crossword puzzles, helping to keep them sharp as one ages.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-10-21 at 04:38 PM.
03-10-21, 04:55 PM
#135
I can attest to life being frenetic - those of you who are retired may not be feeling the pinch, but for the rest of us it's getting absolutely out of hand, to the point that I sometimes wish there was no internet or cell phones. Can't even enjoy a motorcycle ride during work week anymore, constantly have to pull over, take off the helmet and return calls. They even make helmets not where your calls and texts are projected on the glass.