Scotty talks about Tesla’s being green
05-07-21, 10:12 AM
#151
Lexus Test Driver
those leaf, 500e, focus ev, all suck compared to teslas. why? because those companies weren't "all in" on EVs, their r&d is shared with all the rest of it (ICE, trucks, etc). tesla has also been at this a LONG time now. and yes, being (mostly) vertically integrated does help them get things done faster and more efficiently in many cases.
with ford's mach-e and vw's id.4 that is no longer true. the hyundai ioniq and kona and kia niro ev's are also competitive even if they're more 'traditional' and not lightning fast.
the plaid may be 'on sale' but they haven't delivered any have they?
i know you're all about the speeds but MOST consumers don't care that much. but it's obviously what has attracted a lot of decent income younger techie buyers. also of note, tesla owners are OVERWHELMINGLY male.
with ford's mach-e and vw's id.4 that is no longer true. the hyundai ioniq and kona and kia niro ev's are also competitive even if they're more 'traditional' and not lightning fast.
the plaid may be 'on sale' but they haven't delivered any have they?
i know you're all about the speeds but MOST consumers don't care that much. but it's obviously what has attracted a lot of decent income younger techie buyers. also of note, tesla owners are OVERWHELMINGLY male.
05-07-21, 10:17 AM
#152
Lexus Test Driver
His numbers are theoretical based on math and what his assumptions are. Tesla's numbers come from their pre-production testing. Lets see when people start testing their Plaid cars when they receive shipment.
05-07-21, 10:25 AM
#154
Lexus Test Driver
I agree they should be transparent about rollout. But we don't know if the cars will get there without rollout. Tesla has been extremely conservative about their hp ratings. The Model 3 was initially advertised at 450hp and many mags still claim that number but many dynos have proven that is north of 520hp (verified over and over again) at the wheels. If Plaid is pushing north of 1050hp, under 2s is possible without rollout. As I said, we need to wait and see.
05-07-21, 10:45 AM
#155
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
no wonder buyers are overwhelmingly male... this whole is it 2 seconds or whatever is like p3nis envy.
05-07-21, 11:06 AM
#156
Lexus Fanatic
400V. Unknown for the 4680 cell coming later. The 800v architecture helps with charging, not performance. The fastest Taycan charging speeds exceed Teslas. 270kw vs 250kw. Also, the 800v can allow for longer high speed charging sessions. It's not hard to go 800v but it costs more and Teslas legacy Superchargers are all 400V so it wouldn't do Tesla any good. Hyundai and Kia have gone to 800v already.
The Plaid Model on sale now will do 0-60 in about 2 seconds flat. So 1/2 second faster than the Taycan Turbo S but will be cheaper with more range. The Model 3 is faster than a $100k Taycan 4s with the same range at about 1/2 the price. Nothing Ford sells currently can catch a Model Y but the new GT Mach E may come close to the Model Y Performance but will be more expensive due to a bigger battery but should have equivalent range. Tesla is 3 or more years ahead of the competition still.
Now Mercedes enters a segment that once completely dominated by Tesla Model S...
Anyway...good discussion.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 05-07-21 at 11:10 AM.
05-07-21, 04:28 PM
#157
those leaf, 500e, focus ev, all suck compared to teslas. why? because those companies weren't "all in" on EVs, their r&d is shared with all the rest of it (ICE, trucks, etc). tesla has also been at this a LONG time now. and yes, being (mostly) vertically integrated does help them get things done faster and more efficiently in many cases.
Also I disagree that cars like 500e, Leaf, etc suck compared to Teslas. Lets not forget that the first mainstream Tesla was the Model S, which was launched in 2012 with a very hefty price tag, about $80k if my memory serves me right. Cars like the Leaf and 500e were designed to fit a budget niche for a fraction of the price. When I was shopping for the Leaf, it was so cheap and with so many government provided credits that it was practically free. I remember someone posted a break down with all the credits you could effectively lease the Leaf for less than $100 per month. Of course it didn't have Teslas range or performance, but it seemed to me like a perfect city car, and could make a lot of sense as a second car for great many people. However Nissan made it almost impossible to purchase it outside of California, so it never realized its potential. Ditto for the cool little 500e and other bygone EVs.
Anyhow, this is now water under the bridge. Finally there are more solid choices in the EV market, lets see where the future takes us.
05-07-21, 04:44 PM
#158
Pole Position
An old schoolmate of mine who teaches automotive repair at the college level leased a "cool little 500e" and it was nothing but trouble. He hated it. So, maybe you dodged a bullet not being able get one outside of CA. I know this is anecdotal, but, seeing how the 500e was a flash in the pan leads me to believe my schoolmate wasn't the only one having problems.
05-07-21, 04:56 PM
#159
Lexus Champion
An old schoolmate of mine who teaches automotive repair at the college level leased a "cool little 500e" and it was nothing but trouble. He hated it. So, maybe you dodged a bullet not being able get one outside of CA. I know this is anecdotal, but, seeing how the 500e was a flash in the pan leads me to believe my schoolmate wasn't the only one having problems.
05-07-21, 05:00 PM
#160
Lexus Fanatic
Bit a few things. Mainstream companies did not have to start from scratch, so even if they had to share r&d with the rest of their line up, they had ready platforms to start with. Tesla had to start from scratch, and thus their cars still feel very much like kit cars from every standpoint. The design, the assembly, the paint, the interior, the infotainment - everything is very raw. Of course today Tesla has the most advanced electric drivetrain after more than a decade of expertise, but I refuse to believe this is due to their incompetence. As I was saying before, an electric drivetrain is not that complicated, and certainly not a problem for a major auto maker to develop to be at least 90% as efficient as Tesla's.
Also I disagree that cars like 500e, Leaf, etc suck compared to Teslas. Lets not forget that the first mainstream Tesla was the Model S, which was launched in 2012 with a very hefty price tag, about $80k if my memory serves me right. Cars like the Leaf and 500e were designed to fit a budget niche for a fraction of the price. When I was shopping for the Leaf, it was so cheap and with so many government provided credits that it was practically free. I remember someone posted a break down with all the credits you could effectively lease the Leaf for less than $100 per month. Of course it didn't have Teslas range or performance, but it seemed to me like a perfect city car, and could make a lot of sense as a second car for great many people. However Nissan made it almost impossible to purchase it outside of California, so it never realized its potential. Ditto for the cool little 500e and other bygone EVs.
Anyhow, this is now water under the bridge. Finally there are more solid choices in the EV market, lets see where the future takes us.
Also I disagree that cars like 500e, Leaf, etc suck compared to Teslas. Lets not forget that the first mainstream Tesla was the Model S, which was launched in 2012 with a very hefty price tag, about $80k if my memory serves me right. Cars like the Leaf and 500e were designed to fit a budget niche for a fraction of the price. When I was shopping for the Leaf, it was so cheap and with so many government provided credits that it was practically free. I remember someone posted a break down with all the credits you could effectively lease the Leaf for less than $100 per month. Of course it didn't have Teslas range or performance, but it seemed to me like a perfect city car, and could make a lot of sense as a second car for great many people. However Nissan made it almost impossible to purchase it outside of California, so it never realized its potential. Ditto for the cool little 500e and other bygone EVs.
Anyhow, this is now water under the bridge. Finally there are more solid choices in the EV market, lets see where the future takes us.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 05-07-21 at 05:20 PM.
05-07-21, 07:29 PM
#161
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Tesla had to start from scratch, and thus their cars still feel very much like kit cars from every standpoint. The design, the assembly, the paint, the interior, the infotainment - everything is very raw.
Of course today Tesla has the most advanced electric drivetrain after more than a decade of expertise, but I refuse to believe this is due to their incompetence.
Cars like the Leaf and 500e were designed to fit a budget niche for a fraction of the price.
Of course it (Leaf) didn't have Teslas range or performance, but it seemed to me like a perfect city car, and could make a lot of sense as a second car for great many people.
one car left out of the conversation quite a bit is the Chevy Bolt and newer slightly bigger Bolt EUV. these are relatively inexpensive and actually really good.
Anyhow, this is now water under the bridge. Finally there are more solid choices in the EV market, lets see where the future takes us.
05-07-21, 08:42 PM
#163
An old schoolmate of mine who teaches automotive repair at the college level leased a "cool little 500e" and it was nothing but trouble. He hated it. So, maybe you dodged a bullet not being able get one outside of CA. I know this is anecdotal, but, seeing how the 500e was a flash in the pan leads me to believe my schoolmate wasn't the only one having problems.
05-07-21, 08:45 PM
#164
and i believe those ICE platforms were always going to make a compromised frankenstein EV with bad range. as ford, vw, mercedes, and others have learned, you HAVE to have a dedicated EV platform to do it right. so in essence they all REstarted from scratch giving tesla half a decade head start. yes the original roadster was pretty lame, but the Model S was amazing for 2012 and has been improved significantly since (with still more to come this year).
i am still pretty unimpressed by tesla's boring plain interiors except maybe the model X.
perhaps you meant 'competence'? anyway, while EVs may not conceptually be that complicated, devil's in the details, and there's a ton of engineering and software in squeezing maximum performance and range out. i would expect teslas have millions of lines of code in them. even something like charging them is complicated, much more so than filling with gas.
the leaf has done ok as a cheap EV, from what i've heard the 500e was as bad as other 500s
agreed but nissan probably lost money on every one and didn't want to launch far and wide because it would just mean more red ink. but they were cheap with credits because that's what it took to convince anyone to try one.
one car left out of the conversation quite a bit is the Chevy Bolt and newer slightly bigger Bolt EUV. these are relatively inexpensive and actually really good.
i am still pretty unimpressed by tesla's boring plain interiors except maybe the model X.
perhaps you meant 'competence'? anyway, while EVs may not conceptually be that complicated, devil's in the details, and there's a ton of engineering and software in squeezing maximum performance and range out. i would expect teslas have millions of lines of code in them. even something like charging them is complicated, much more so than filling with gas.
the leaf has done ok as a cheap EV, from what i've heard the 500e was as bad as other 500s
agreed but nissan probably lost money on every one and didn't want to launch far and wide because it would just mean more red ink. but they were cheap with credits because that's what it took to convince anyone to try one.
one car left out of the conversation quite a bit is the Chevy Bolt and newer slightly bigger Bolt EUV. these are relatively inexpensive and actually really good.
Last edited by Och; 05-08-21 at 06:44 AM.
05-07-21, 09:19 PM
#165
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
tesla has got some serious volume production happening though, and that's impressive.