Originally Posted by EZZ

You're failing to see the point. Tesla's contribution isn't just about battery chemistry but the advancement of the battery management system and motors to extract maximum efficiency, range, and reliability out of the batteries. At least one of these is true...what Tesla did is hard to do because their technology is innovative or the OEMs are just incompetent and pretty pathetic at building anything but an engine, because its been at least 5 years for them to react and their still trying to catch up. I personally gave OEMs the benefit of the doubt but if you don't agree, then we can agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Och

Battery management isn't new or hard, but it can be cost prohibitive because eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns. Ideally in a battery pack each battery would have its own board that monitors the battery temperature, charge state, cycle count, and controls the rate at which its being charger or discharged. Obviously the pack should be heated/cooled to keep the batteries in the optimal temperature range. None of this is difficult, and to claim that major OEMs are incompetent and can't design a similar battery pack is delusional. I don't know what's preventing them from doing so, perhaps Tesla is getting government subsidies that others are not, or maybe they are deliberately being held back. Again, it just doesn't make sense for them to buy carbon credits from Tesla when they are perfectly capable of building their own EVs, and have demonstrated their ability with cars like the Leaf, 500e, Focus EV, and so on.

Originally Posted by EZZ

So you choose to believe that there is a government conspiracy to prop up Tesla vs. the OEMs just being incompetent. Understood.

Originally Posted by Och

Tesla has always seemed to have a pretty privileged position with the government, and don't always play by the rules. They are the only auto maker selling their cars direct without a third party dealership network, they get to get away with blatant false advertising of "full self driving" that has already a number of fatal crashes, they get to benefit from the carbon credits scheme. I won't be surprised if there is some sort of malarkey going on that allows them to have a monopoly on the carbon credits.

P.S. Many EV owners, and even Elon himself, claim that government, ICE automakers, and oil companies are involved in a conspiracy. I don't doubt that big business and the government setup all kinds of shady programs all the time, and in the end the consumers are paying the higher costs.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

This is not true. It didn’t take long for VW or Mercedes to match Tesla with the EV motors. Toyota has been making electric motors for a lot longer than Tesla. Further, all the above will be more profitable than anything Tesla is doing at the moment.

Originally Posted by LeX2K

Wait, so the government is in cahoots with Tesla in some grand conspiracy, secret subsidies and who knows what else. But ALSO there is a conspiracy with legacy OEMs, the government and big oil?

Originally Posted by EZZ

Where did you see them catch up to Tesla? The old Model S still beats everyone in terms of range and efficiency and its not even close. EQS has the range but significantly underpowered and the Taycan has the power but significantly less range. Toyota has been making motors for longer but they don't even build an EV and their motors are pathetically weak. So when all other arguments fail, the profitability trope arises again?

EQS - 108kWh, ~400 miles of range, 4.3 to 60
Taycan - 93 kWh, 260 miles of range, 2.8 to 60
Model S - 100 kWh 400 miles of range 3.1 to 60
Model S Plaid ?kWh 520 miles of range, <2s to 60

Originally Posted by LeX2K

Carbon credits is not a new idea probably goes back to the Kyoto Protocol which is circa 1992. The term has 70 million search hits if that's a hidden tax, conspiracy or some other nefarious scheme it's the worst kept secret ever.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

Pointless numbers. What is important is whether or not Taycan is selling. People are buying them. I think they now outsell Model S. Same with EQS. All of these numbers for performance are close enough. A Taycan will handle better and is more luxurious which is very very important. VW and Mercedes have caught up to Tesla.

Originally Posted by LeX2K

Carbon credits is not a new idea probably goes back to the Kyoto Protocol which is circa 1992. The term has 70 million search hits if that's a hidden tax, conspiracy or some other nefarious scheme it's the worst kept secret ever.

Originally Posted by Och

Taycan is expensive and it seems the EQS might be even more expensive. A Tesla Model 3 leases for the price of a V6 Camry, so no, there isn't a practical alternative to Teslas.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

Does not matter if a Tesla 3 has no alternative. A 3 is very expensive for the size of car….missing loads of features than can be found on lesser cars such as sunroof, cooling seats, even Apple Car play….but for VW to have a Porsche model that is selling very well in such a short time is impressive. The claim was that no OEM can create a motor equivalent to a Tesla is not true.

Originally Posted by EZZ

Absolutely true. Tesla has the best range, power, and cost in every segment for their EVs and thats related to their battery system and motors. Tesla leads in every segment because of their superiority with those metrics. A Model S has more range, more power, and costs less than anything in its segment. Same for the Model 3 and Model Y.