Toyota bZ4X and Subaru Solterra
#76
#77
The bZ4X is literally half-cooked. Toyota cooked one half, Subaru cooked the other. It is presumptuous to declare that this will be "reliable" based on a totally different technology that Toyota had to refine for decades to be as reliable as it is today. Hybrids are not EV's- EV's require more complex software for thermal management, which is what puts Tesla ahead of the pack when it comes to range, efficiency, and power. Toyota has never been known for strong software. Even outside of software, it was only recently that they shifted from nickel metal hydride batteries to lithium ion batteries.
And if reliability was such a major factor in consumer perception when it came to buying an EV, Tesla wouldn't dominate EV sales like it does.
And if reliability was such a major factor in consumer perception when it came to buying an EV, Tesla wouldn't dominate EV sales like it does.
The "complex software" part is way too funny to comment on.
As others have mentioned - Toyota doesn't really do high performance, REALLY doesn't do high power (excluding the gr yaris), and people still buy corollas, camries, rav4s, highlanders, land cruisers, RX/ES/UX/NX, etc... I wonder why.
Reliability-wise, I have this weird feeling that the ongoing (and worsening) parts shortage is going to really emphasize the reliability factor of cars - not fun having your in-warranty vehicle sitting at the lot, waiting for parts weeks (currently - if lucky) at a time.
#78
Tesla's inverters (power units or whatever) still fail. Toyota's double-sided cooling inverter IGBTs (ls600h+, not the prius3) practically never ever fail. The power numbers going through the motors on their higher power hybrids are around 250kw (at least on mine - 125kw "regen" from one motor, a bit more "traction" into the other due to battery assist) - a consequence of how their eCVT works is that they need to have some pretty powerful EV hardware - there are many good reasons why they're often used for DIY EV projects, besides the obvious high availability. Their Ni-MH battery packs rarely if ever fail, despite not really having any sort of cell-level BMS. They've had li-ion hybrid packs in the EU-spec prius prime and the 3rd gen plugin for quite some time now. Fun fact - everything that really matters is made in-house.
The "complex software" part is way too funny to comment on.
As others have mentioned - Toyota doesn't really do high performance, REALLY doesn't do high power (excluding the gr yaris), and people still buy corollas, camries, rav4s, highlanders, land cruisers, RX/ES/UX/NX, etc... I wonder why.
Reliability-wise, I have this weird feeling that the ongoing (and worsening) parts shortage is going to really emphasize the reliability factor of cars - not fun having your in-warranty vehicle sitting at the lot, waiting for parts weeks (currently - if lucky) at a time.
The "complex software" part is way too funny to comment on.
As others have mentioned - Toyota doesn't really do high performance, REALLY doesn't do high power (excluding the gr yaris), and people still buy corollas, camries, rav4s, highlanders, land cruisers, RX/ES/UX/NX, etc... I wonder why.
Reliability-wise, I have this weird feeling that the ongoing (and worsening) parts shortage is going to really emphasize the reliability factor of cars - not fun having your in-warranty vehicle sitting at the lot, waiting for parts weeks (currently - if lucky) at a time.
#79
By your logic then none of these do either. I'm not buying what you're selling
Mini SE - 114 mile range
Nissan Leaf - 149
BMW i3 - 153
Ioniq Electric - 170
Taycan - 200
e-tron sportback - 218
e-tron - 222
Nissan Leaf Plus - 226
Mache E - 230
Polestar 2 - 233
e-tron GT - 238
Niro EV - 239
Bolt EUV - 247
Kona Electric - 258
Bolt EV - 259
ID.4 - 260
Model 3 SR - 263
bZ4X - 285
Mini SE - 114 mile range
Nissan Leaf - 149
BMW i3 - 153
Ioniq Electric - 170
Taycan - 200
e-tron sportback - 218
e-tron - 222
Nissan Leaf Plus - 226
Mache E - 230
Polestar 2 - 233
e-tron GT - 238
Niro EV - 239
Bolt EUV - 247
Kona Electric - 258
Bolt EV - 259
ID.4 - 260
Model 3 SR - 263
bZ4X - 285
#80
I am not sure if you dont know what other companies are doing, or are you focusing only on top end versions.
#81
Tesla's inverters (power units or whatever) still fail. Toyota's double-sided cooling inverter IGBTs (ls600h+, not the prius3) practically never ever fail. The power numbers going through the motors on their higher power hybrids are around 250kw (at least on mine - 125kw "regen" from one motor, a bit more "traction" into the other due to battery assist) - a consequence of how their eCVT works is that they need to have some pretty powerful EV hardware - there are many good reasons why they're often used for DIY EV projects, besides the obvious high availability. Their Ni-MH battery packs rarely if ever fail, despite not really having any sort of cell-level BMS. They've had li-ion hybrid packs in the EU-spec prius prime and the 3rd gen plugin for quite some time now. Fun fact - everything that really matters is made in-house.
The "complex software" part is way too funny to comment on.
The "complex software" part is way too funny to comment on.
As others have mentioned - Toyota doesn't really do high performance, REALLY doesn't do high power (excluding the gr yaris), and people still buy corollas, camries, rav4s, highlanders, land cruisers, RX/ES/UX/NX, etc... I wonder why.
This isn't about performance, this is about matching its competitors on the bare basics.
Last edited by Motorola; 10-30-21 at 05:14 PM.
#83
Predictable comments i see...
agreed.
Agreed.
agreed although not a yoke fan except for race cars.
I'd say no chance of that.
why dangerous? Sounds better than tesla's wrap your arms in knots with the yoke deal.
Maybe Toyota is using the same motors as they have in their hybrids would not surprise me. Range is fine anything over 250 miles is good enough for most people. Where this car will sink or swim is in the infotainment and general tech.
priced in high 30s (doubt it) would be a winner imo.
#85
it seems like you are making a lot of claims without researching anything about them. All the base EV models from VW, Skoda, Nissan, Renault, KIA, Hyundai are similar in acceleration to BZ4X, mostly little bit slower, Koreans are little bit faster. Those are the models that sell the best.
It is quite possible that BZ4X will get faster option, just like ID4 got, 6 months later.
It is quite possible that BZ4X will get faster option, just like ID4 got, 6 months later.
#86
All the base EV models from VW, Skoda, Nissan, Renault, KIA, Hyundai are similar in acceleration to BZ4X, mostly little bit slower, Koreans are little bit faster. Those are the models that sell the best.
bZ4X: 8.4s
ID.4: 8.5s (real world time: 7.4-7.6s)
Mach E: 5.8s
Ioniq 5: 7.5s
EV6: Same as above
So not counting the Model Y since no pure RWD version is available (emphasizing how silly it is to even compare these midsize CUV's that aren't AWD lol), the bZ4X manages to only match the ID4, which runs over a second faster than its claimed time in real world testing. What is there to celebrate here?
It is quite possible that BZ4X will get faster option, just like ID4 got, 6 months later.
If Toyota had such a model, they would have already announced it.
Last edited by Motorola; 10-31-21 at 12:47 PM.
#87
One thing I noticed is that the Toyota has a heat pump which will allow significant heating of the cabin in cold weather. This is something that a lot of the other EV's do not have/offer. My understanding is that it is also more efficient for cooling, as that it will not use up power as quickly as those vehicles that don't have this. If this is true, it should help with maintaining the mileage advertised no matter what outside temperature is. As an example, I was watching a review of another electric vehicle that advertised 310 miles per charge, but with A/C running in 90+ temperatures, actual mileage was just over 200 miles per charge. Living where I would run the A/C most of the year that is a very big discepancy.
#88
One thing I noticed is that the Toyota has a heat pump which will allow significant heating of the cabin in cold weather. This is something that a lot of the other EV's do not have/offer. My understanding is that it is also more efficient for cooling, as that it will not use up power as quickly as those vehicles that don't have this. If this is true, it should help with maintaining the mileage advertised no matter what outside temperature is. As an example, I was watching a review of another electric vehicle that advertised 310 miles per charge, but with A/C running in 90+ temperatures, actual mileage was just over 200 miles per charge. Living where I would run the A/C most of the year that is a very big discepancy.
Here's hoping Toyota won't be boneheaded enough to remove the heat pump for U.S. markets like VW.
#89
One thing I noticed is that the Toyota has a heat pump which will allow significant heating of the cabin in cold weather. This is something that a lot of the other EV's do not have/offer. My understanding is that it is also more efficient for cooling, as that it will not use up power as quickly as those vehicles that don't have this. If this is true, it should help with maintaining the mileage advertised no matter what outside temperature is. As an example, I was watching a review of another electric vehicle that advertised 310 miles per charge, but with A/C running in 90+ temperatures, actual mileage was just over 200 miles per charge. Living where I would run the A/C most of the year that is a very big discepancy.
#90
Even Teslas heat-pump is nothing eartshattering. So Toyota's claims about efficiency are interesting there.
They already mentioned heat pump and floor heater in the US press release.