They never said there was not going to be RWD I6 sedan, it really does not make much sense to give a totally different car, a more upscale car the same name as your previous FWD family sedan. The RWD I6 sedan will likely be replacing the Mazda 6 but also at a higher level and they will give it a different name, may even bring back the Millenia name as that is where this car will be placed.

 

Yes, it makes perfect sense for them to replace a sedan that sells poorly because of CUV's with an even more expensive sedan that will take its place and sell in even more limited quantities.

 

Mazda's CUV's don't even sell that well either. Mazda is a very confusing brand, they try to have a sporty image yet only have a bunch of mild powered mediocre 4 cylinders, the Miata is the only shining light in the brand. The 6 failed for a number of reasons, it was never a big seller to begin with but one of the main problems was the final gen never had a great or even good engine, it looked great, drove very well, but had a mediocre 4 cylinder. The RWD I6 sedan is more then just a rumor by 1 or 2 guys, many sources seem to say there is more evidence there are plans for it then just a weak rumor. A more up level sedan could make more sense for Mazda, they can't sell a affordable FWD 4 cylinder family sedan in any kind of volume so it might make more sense to sell a more expensive entry level lux sedan at the lower volume, they can't just call a more expensive RWD I6 lux/sport sedan a Mazda6 as the name clearly has no real value, they need a more prestigious name. I doubt Mazda just wants to be another dull all CUV brand with a Miata too, their sporty image will quickly disappear. With entry level lux sedans getting more and more expensive there is a spot Mazda could slide that sedan into and they may have some success and still build up their sporty image.

 

Their CX5 has been the best in class for awhile now. The turbo version is even better. Their Mazda 3 is also critically liked and has decent sales. The new cX30 is widely liked too. My only criticism is that they don't have a higher tier powertrain to fill the Mazdaspeed trim.

The Mazda 3 with turbo is actually quite compelling. I would choose that over any civic (excluding CTR) or Corolla.

 

Like I mentioned before, Mazda's CX-5 literally outsold the 6 by a factor of ten last year and made up half of all their sales in North America. The company is very much defined by crossovers now, which is why it's still alive as a brand- customers don't care for sedans anymore.

Mazda can call this hypothetical premium luxury sedan whatever they want, the problem is that it's still badged as a Mazda. Hyundai and Volkswagen already learned the hard way with the original Genesis and Phaeton that a different name isn't enough, it needs a different brand- which Mazda will not be able to create anytime soon. And regardless of their past achievements and attempts to move upmarket, they have not acquired enough prestige to come anywhere near even their fellow Japanese counterparts like Acura or Lexus, nevermind the German trio. At best, they'll fight the Stinger and Arteon for scraps.

While it is true that there are hints that Mazda is developing a new longitudinal platform and inline 6 to go with it in prior press releases, there is no guarantee that translates to an actual product. We've seen no prototypes, no concepts, nothing. Even those aren't safe from cancellation- look at what Jaguar did with their XJ EV. Mazda simply can't weather financial difficulties as well as others because they're a tiny company. That means that every car they make has to be profitable, or else they will be crushed with no big daddy like Ford to save them like back in the 90s.

Here is the thing I would like Mazda fans to consider- you may want them to build this inline 6 premium sedan to compete against the German trio and satisfy your desire for whatever's left of Amati, but is such a low-volume niche product really going to help the company survive in this changing climate of CUV's and electrification?

EDIT: Checking sales numbers again, I take back what I said about Mazda's 2020 performance, since Mazda actually fared pretty well in 2020 despite COVID. However, the brunt of their success again came from crossovers (helped by the addition of the new CX-30) as all their sedans took a massive hit.

 

Being very busy lately in my product planning capacities, I do not really have the time to duke it out over the internet anymore, regarding such subjects. I know the substantial majority of people here are other working professionals or retirees, but somehow my work-life balance can no longer accommodate this, especially if it just riles me up and knowing my writing style, too time consuming.

I left Lexus Enthusiast after being a leading contributor for many years, because I could not tolerate a shocking increase in overly partisan sentiment and subjective outlooks being pushed as if fact, not to mention insulting my employer blatantly in my presence (in response to Bronco intro) being the final straw.

You seem terribly validated by the Mazda6 not returning for MY 2022, as if it was somehow personal and to be honest, that's somewhat absurd and honestly unwarranted. From what I recall, you have never mentioned that you work for Mazda nor have any professional involvement with them nor any professionals part of that company, to be taking stance that you are against many other users that are not as quick to judge.

I think you should just take it easy and wait, instead of playing some nonsensical I-told-you-so-game, which is only going to end in back and forth arguing, considering you don't know for a fact what Mazda is actually doing and neither do many here as an absolute.

Am I put off by that? Yes, I am unfortunately, because I have observed your commentary for months casually regarding Mazda (as well as Japanese media) and not said anything out of respect, but enough is enough. One should be somewhat balanced, as well as critical when necessary. Yes, I understand the frustration with annoying magazine/internet racers and Reddit/Jalopnik circlejerk and their love affair with Mazda, at the expense of the Camry nameplate and Lexus brand often garneriing their derision.

For me personally, I was the grandson of a man, a construction magnate who ventured into the automotive sector and introduced the Mazda brand to his own populous region abroad and was an importer for both BMW and Mazda for many years, before his retirement 3 decades ago.

Although Amati would not be part of his distribution chain, he intended to grey import units from the USA in limited numbers (after having tried to lobby to get Amati). He certainly liked the many 929s he owned, so he did not want to miss out on the potential, as Japanese brands began to gain widespread appeal locally, dethroning British, German, French makes and Volvo.

You are very quick to attack and criticize Mazda's ambitions, neglecting the reality of how, Amati fell apart for a multitude of complex reasons and not just a few footnotes listed in a Jalopnik article. Ralph Orlove as good as he tries to be, will not have the whole picture. Until Mazda left the Ford umbrella, they were not able to execute all aspects of product development as they saw fit. Mazdaspeed that people continue to dwell on (I did love it), was the brainchild of none other than our former CEO Mark Fields, during his stint from 1999 to 2002 as Mazda president, which took Mazda out of its late 90s malaise and changed the nomenclature from 3 numbers to just 1. He also created the Zoom-Zoom campaign right when he arrived in 1999 and inaugurated it in the spring of 2000.

For the good things he and the first 1 or 2 Ford-appointed successors did to reinvigorate the brand in the early-mid 2000s, there were still quality concerns needed to be addressed (rust), things that indeed bothered native Mazda personnel. Not to mention, Mazdaspeed and Zoom-Zoom were seen as childish by many at Mazda in Hiroshima, favoring a more subtle approach to performance. Nagare design language was a misstep and certain bad decisions made after Mark left, created an almost malaise era of the late 2000s and early 2010s.

Ford dependence on the Mazda FWD architectures, made it very difficult to make a long desired return to unibody, RWD layout for a larger chunk of the brand. Mazda wanted to begin development of more RWD offerings as early as 2007 and launch an RX-8 replacement in the 2010s.

Due to the recession and Ford wanting to divest from various brands in our portfolio, in January 2009 Mazda was forced to rapidly finish Skyactiv initiated in 2006, plus develop a new underlying FWD basis for various vehicles. RX-8 replacement was canceled, ND program restructured and pushed back, RWD aspirations put on the backburner, to finish an all-new Tribute successor, Mazda6, Mazda3, Mazda2, compact crossover(s), ND MX-5, and CX-9 independent of Ford. CX-7 was canceled and not replaced due to redundancy..

In 2010, a new midsize CUV and Mazda6 had passed the whiteboard phases and were finished clay models, indistinguishable from the production vehicles. The Shinari Concept by autumn foretold both with the new Kodo design language, followed by more direct previews in 2011 with Minagi and Takeri concepts, as well as the next Mazda3 reaching the same definition during 2011. That CUV teased by Minagi, CX-5. was revealed in Germany in September 2011 and launched in early 2012 and the new Mazda6 (Takeri) followed in August and reached USA in January 2013.

In 2013, Mazda entered advanced phases of studying how to approach a new RWD architecture, doing case studies and feasibility exploration, in being goal #1 for Mazda long term.With limited volume, carefully revamp dealer network and raise profit per unit sold.

Meanwhile, converting the whole existing lineup from C1/CD3 to Kodo/Skyactiv Mazda-only basis was still being rolled out and early work on Generation 2 Kodo vehicles now beginning. The earliest work on anything RWD for production vehicles at Mazda dates back to 2015 and never had plans to be in showrooms before 2020. With this knowledge, the 2018 Mazda6 was developed, instead of being redesigned as a generation 2 Kodo car like the CX-5. Additional delays setback Mazda, 1.5 to 2 years toward 2022.

In simpler terms, it has only been 12 years since Mazda began independent development of its products. Not having access to the V6 powertrains of Ford nor existing I4s, meant they had to start over. Being such a small company, the core focus was to develop new products that are FWD/I4 Skyactiv/unibody with Kodo design over a 3-4 year period (2012-16). Then, bring the new turbo to market, keep them fresh with either a heavy redesign on the same platform like the 2017 CX-5 or secondary facelift, while the 3rd generation "Small" FWD architecture and "Large" RWD architecture are studied and developed.

For anyone to happily lambast them, for having hiccups and growing pains during this process, is unusually absurd and unfair, without understanding the greater picture behind it. It's very easy to claim that they should've done all of this 10-15 years ago (cuz EVs), but a tone deaf perspective, when you consider they didn't have the means to do so while under Ford control nor when limited funds, meant these aspirations had to wait longer against finishing Skyactiv powertrains and the new generation of vehicles separate from Ford.

The expense to develop 2013MY+ FWD Skyactiv+Kodo vehicles, warranted two generations to get ROI, before going forward with always planned Small and Large architectures, since the late 2000s. There is absolutely no market for such a vehicle, if the unrestricted voluminous US market is not involved.

And frankly, I have no interest in the Canadian press release (which can easily be misinterpreted), as although often shared with the US market, it is a much smaller market that for many years has offered differing products not even sold here and vice-versa. For 23 years, Toyota did not even offer the Land Cruiser in any Canadian province, despite doing so stateside. Nor do I recall seeing B-Classes here, like I do in Vancouver and Toronto.

Some seem to think they are clever mentioning pointing out the failed diesel offering in the CX-5 and 6, negating the magnitude of how the VW Diesel Scandal created a nasty domino effect and made it damn near impossible for any non-domestic to get a foothold into the US with diesel. They pushed through with what they previously committed to. Both AWD and diesel were not offered for that reason; due to the intent to offer them on the replacement vehicle. Mazda was not explicitly stated they have cancelled development of any more sedans via either their US or Japan press relations departments.

I will wait to hear from the US branch on this one, as unlike other companies (I have contacts at), no one here has any reliable insight into Mazda's thorough product plans beyond the previously stated redesigns, especially during a chip shortage, when higher volume products not on their 9th year of production, warrant greater focus until it abates.

I have given my perspective and that is that.

 

As usual, I always appreciate your insight Carmaker. However, my attitude towards Mazda is not "validation"- it is merely acknowledgement of their current progress. Much of what you have written about Mazda's history are things I am aware of. Yes, we know they are a small company with limited resources. Yes, we know they were handicapped by their partnership with Ford. And yes, we know they've had aspirations to RWD for over a decade now- the mountains of concept art make that more than obvious. The reason my commentary sounds personal is because I am exhausted of this cycle of teaser, fan hype across every journo outlet and piece of social media, and then nothing coming to fruition or in a manner that underwhelms. I told you as much months ago in PM's, that I used to keep up with every aspect of Mazda on forums a decade ago before I got sick and tired of this toxic cycle, which unfortunately to this day has not changed for the brand. Yes, I understand the circumstances are not ideal, and yes they have legitimate reasons for not delivering, and that they are trying their best- but I would rather they be honest about the scope of their work rather than continuously pushing out nonstop teasers and concepts that they do not deliver on. Mazda has effectively become a brand that sells the image of its cars well before it actually sells the cars- and this is not helped by the endless waves of journalist hype over bare scraps.

The fact that this longitudinally mounted premium sedan has been hoopla'd over the media for years now despite there being almost zero substantial material of it barring a few investor slides mentioning the platform and engine and some recent pictures of an I6 demonstrates the core problem with Mazda- it is just teaser after teaser with little substance. Toyota and Lexus have also been suffering from this syndrome in recent years, not helped by the likes of hype men like Kirk, but at least we know they have the ability to deliver on a product if they feel like it. That confidence is not there with Mazda for all the factors that you touched on.

Your comments about how long they have planned to convert their entire lineup into RWD are interesting, because what it actually validates is that Mazda's plan for a RWD Mazda 6 type-vehicle was made long before they could even imagine the world moving to electrification and crossovers. Vehicles like the recently unveiled MX-30 EV were never on the radar back then, and now they will likely be Mazda's future. As I said in the post above yours, what the Mazda fans need to do now is decide whether they want this premium I6 sedan that nobody will buy at the cost of the company taking a hit. They plan to survive, and I see no reason to believe that this unicorn of a vehicle will benefit them from a financial perspective if they plan to make it.

By the way, if the vehicle comes out in 2022, I would have expected to see actual prototypes being tested by now like this CX-5 (or 9). When we get to this stage, THEN we will have something to talk about rather than whether the damn thing will even exist.

 

All of the in bold is terribly inaccurate and rather offensive to me, because it paints a false narrative against Ford, clearly without exercising any due diligence. One has to be very responsible, especially as a journalist, with what they report to be accurate. I rarely comment on so many subjects, as I am bound to get information wrong on what I am unfamiliar with and not closely following. The timelines of what you referred to don't even match up at all.

The first automaker to abandon sedans in the USA, was FCA, NOT Ford with the Chrysler 200 and Dodge Avenger in 2016. FCA left the 300 and Charger to languish, sprinkling in only special editions of the 392 and 6.2L with no real changes to the exteriors/interiors for years to come. Ford followed FCA's lead under Jim Hackett the following year and gradually ushered them out (through late 2020) and not even as abrupt as FCA, so not sure where you even got that from. Sergio Marchionne is the one who saw no real profit in FWD sedans in USA and dropped them, so very wrong on your part.

Secondly, the UN46 Explorer was launched in April 1990 as a 1991 model, during the Japanese Asset Bubble and before the Japanese recession began and Amati had any resutting issues, as it did in late 1992. In 1989, Mazda barely initiated the Amati project and the year 1990 at Mazda was mostly engineers doing research, defining targets and parameters for Amati and studying 12 cylinders, while designers worked on clay models of the flagship Amati 1000 and Millennia.

I'm not sure how the 1991 Explorer has anything to do with that, as that's way off base. You have this tendency to say glaring, off topic things like this off the cuff, which one can only wonder why, as anyone paying attention to the industry like you do, would know otherwise.

Unverified trivia like this from automotive journalism, is often why I get very tired of reading any automotive news as a professional myself. Misquote, misquote, misinterpret or manufacture context, to sell an idea, a story or personal opinion/narrative.

Particularly in hearing how Mercedes-Benz rushed in a bunch of features on their 1992 S-Class to compete with 1990 LS 400, which was not only untrue hearsay from a magazine writer at the launch of the LS 460 in 2006 (against new W221), but it did not even take into account strict vehicle lead times, out of absolute ignorance to MB's own internal W140 timeline from 1981 to 1991. Many of the W140 features internally predated the LS 400 being a known entity, yet that stupid made-up rumor still carries everywhere thanks to it being plastered on Wikipedia by an ignorant user who wouldn't know any better about the credibility of source and validity of their facetious claim .

Mazda's upmarket aspirations have indeed been discouraged by Ford most definitely in the past, but not anywhere where the Explorer was concerned. Coupled with the financial problems Mazda started undergoing from high capital investment via too many ambitious projects, too many sub-brands in JDM and elsewhere, reduced real estate value, dysfunction between Irvine staff and Hiroshima executives, and etc, Amati was killed at the end of 1992. The existence of Aston Martin, Mercury, Jaguar, and Lincoln had Alexander Trotman discourage any attempts by Mazda to approach resurrecting those plans. That changed in 2009.

 

Do you think there will be a new Mazda sedan coming at some point? for some markets...I certainly do..I think there will be a Toyota/Mazda partnership

 

I did not mean for it to be offensive at all....so do not take anything personally. I simply stated it as I recalled it, although that was some time ago....around 30 years now.

The Dodge Dart was also cancelled around that time frame.

Neither Ford nor FCA has completely abandoned sedans, though...the Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, and Ford Fusion are still listed on the company's American websites.



Not sure what you are getting at here, though. This is not a journalistic forum per se, but a forum where people give opinions, discuss them, and sometimes do personal reviews and write-ups. And it is also highly-moderated....posting rules are enforced.

 

I'm not a big fan of Mazda, so no emotions one way or another. In 2018 when I was in the market for a car, I test drove the Mazda 6 and it was so underwhelming in power, you had to wring it out just to get anything out of it. The turbocharged Mazda 6 which bumped up the power to 250 hp with Premium was so pricy I didn't even bother to test drive it. I ended up buying a 2018 Honda Civic Si, but after more than a year and half, I bought a friends 2010 Lexus IS350 Sport, sold the Si and never looked back. Good or bad, Toyota is an inseparable part of my DNA

 

Carmaker, thank you for your injection of facts into this discussion.

Selfishly speaking, as an admirer of Mazda engineering and styling, I'll take this opportunity to second Jill's question: Do you know or have an educated guess whether there's a serious chance of that Mazda I6 sedan reaching these shores?

 

Carmaker1 - thanks for taking the time to provide a lot of context and facts about what has happened to Mazda and other parties.

i've always had a soft spot for Mazda and had a Miata (NC) for a couple of years and LOVED it.

but looking at their overall product line over the years, one can sense the strain of such limited resources and if, as Motorola says, Mazda has put out a bunch of unrealized concepts it could well be that the market is just changing too fast for them to keep up.

I believe to survive they must be acquired at some point. I wish them only the best as they make affordable fun to drive cars! Another japanese brand i would never have suspected to do so well is subaru. They probably weren't much bigger or maybe smaller than mazda at one time but look at them now!

 

There were multiple rumors that Toyota managers have already took over operations in Mazda.

 

Subaru, like Audi, bet the farm on the development of car-based AWD....although, of course, both companies were influenced by the AWD 1980-82 AMD Eagle and SX-4. Nevertheless, both companies were clearly rewarded by that effort....it turned out to be a great success for them.

I sincerely hope not. IMO, we have to many buyouts and too much consolidation in the auto industry as it is. Soon, the entire industry will be in the hands of four or five mega-conglomerates.