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Cost will come down, it always does with technology and we don't buy cars by the pound. EV cars will be heavier than gas cars, no doubt. This wont be an issue for anybody since people buy cars based on their attributes, not their weight.
For instance we're used to a gas car being ~ 3,500 lbs. That number is going to be ~5,000 lbs for a comparable EV.
Thats too much. A Model S comes in around 4800 lbs but is comparable in size to a 5 series which is around 4300 lbs. A Model 3 AWD weighs around 4200 lbs which is about 400 lbs heavier than an AWD 3 series. I'd say the batteries contribute about 500 lbs of additional weight.
Thats too much. A Model S comes in around 4800 lbs but is comparable in size to a 5 series which is around 4300 lbs. A Model 3 AWD weighs around 4200 lbs which is about 400 lbs heavier than an AWD 3 series. I'd say the batteries contribute about 500 lbs of additional weight.
I think that makes sense, I was just making up numbers.
For instance we're used to a gas car being ~ 3,500 lbs. That number is going to be ~5,000 lbs for a comparable EV.
On average, although a jump from 3500 to 5000 lbs. is still (obviously) not the same as the effect of large 80,000 lb. freight-trucks, more vehicle weight is going to mean more stress on pavement, bridges, and infrastructure. That means the need for more maintenance, and more taxes to support that maintenance. We can't even adequately fund our infrastructure-repairs needs now, much less with millions more heavier vehicles on the roads in the future.
On average, although a jump from 3500 to 5000 lbs. is still (obviously) not the same as the effect of large 80,000 lb. freight-trucks, more vehicle weight is going to mean more stress on pavement, bridges, and infrastructure. That means the need for more maintenance, and more taxes to support that maintenance. We can't even adequately fund our infrastructure-repairs needs now, much less with millions more heavier vehicles on the roads in the future.
It applies to cars as well.
To gain range, you gain mass. A BMW 3 series begins its weight at 3560lbs, I have no idea the weight of the cars in this pic, but the 3 series 330xi has a total range of 437miles.. to get there, model 3 series need to add a larger battery which adds more mass. I bet to get to 437 miles, the Telsa 3 would need to add another 1000lbs of battery..the rwd 3 series is 468 total combined miles, so even more battery is required
So to come back to the original point of the thread, Toyota sees that batteries cannot possibly serve all needs…so they are making their case to the US government
To gain range, you gain mass. A BMW 3 series begins its weight at 3560lbs, I have no idea the weight of the cars in this pic, but the 3 series 330xi has a total range of 437miles.. to get there, model 3 series need to add a larger battery which adds more mass. I bet to get to 437 miles, the Telsa 3 would need to add another 1000lbs of battery..the rwd 3 series is 468 total combined miles
Completely untrue. The LR AWD version is 4200 lbs and gets 353 miles of range with a 78kwh battery. The LR Model S already gets over 400 miles of range with a 100 kwh battery and is a much bigger car and weighs 4800 lbs. You'll probably need a 90kwh battery to get over 430 miles so maybe a hundred or 200 lbs more at most. Also, that 3 series is the wrong car to compare as its much slower than a comparable Tesla. Whats the range of a M340 or M3 to a dual motor Model 3. Lets keep this comparative.
Completely untrue. The LR AWD version is 4200 lbs and gets 353 miles of range with a 78kwh battery. The LR Model S already gets over 400 miles of range with a 100 kwh battery and is a much bigger car and weighs 4800 lbs. You'll probably need a 90kwh battery to get over 430 miles so maybe a hundred or 200 lbs more at most. Also, that 3 series is the wrong car to compare as its much slower than a comparable Tesla. Whats the range of a M340 or M3 to a dual motor Model 3. Lets keep this comparative.
Originally Posted by EZZ
T= A Model 3 AWD weighs around 4200 lbs which is about 400 lbs heavier than an AWD 3 series. I'd say the batteries contribute about 500 lbs of additional weight.
You're comparing a Base 3 series to suite your argument is my point. The M340 will get about 350-400 miles of range and be equivalent to the dual motor Model 3. The M340 weighs about 3900 lbs with AWD. The Model 3 AWD weighs 4200 lbs. To get 350-400 miles of real world range, it would have to have another 15-20 kwh battery and that would be equivalent to about 100-200 lbs of weight (NOT 1000 lbs). The entire Model 3 pack weighs 1000 lbs. Like I said, equivalent car will weight about 500 lbs more for the EV vs. ICE.
Also saw an article today that the 2022 Chevy bolt price had been reduced by $3500 compared to previous year. So no, EVs don’t necessarily keep raising in price.
Also saw an article today that the 2022 Chevy bolt price had been reduced by $3500 compared to previous year. So no, EVs don’t necessarily keep raising in price.
Also, Model 3 Performance price in 2018 = $65k. Model 3 Performance price in 2021 = $57k. Isn't she the one always pointing out that Tesla is lowering prices? LOL.
Also saw an article today that the 2022 Chevy bolt price had been reduced by $3500 compared to previous year. So no, EVs don’t necessarily keep raising in price.
Price went down, yes. But range is unchanged at 259 combined miles. KIA Soul and Bolt are both classified as small station wagons. So to get the Bolt range to the range of the Soil, battery has to be larger, thus more weight and maybe a larger motor
I have no idea what the prices are
Do you see any argument that EVs makes less sense for lower priced entries and segments?
Typical slant and bias from the NYT. Nothing more than an opinion rag at this point.
Toyota asking for hybrids and hydrogen to be part of the mix isn't trying to slow EV adoption. Everywhere, we hear how "diversity" is our "strength". Same goes for energy. Who knows, hydrogen might have a break through that could be even better. Why stifle innovation by focusing on one technology at the detriment of others?
On the flip side, if true, that shows that Toyota isn't really being honest about all the EVs they supposedly have coming "soon" now and for the last few years. If they were really planning to roll out all the EVs over the new few years like they claim, they would be all on board with this.
To summarize, somebody is lying. My money is on both Toyota and the NYT.
When it comes to range, you get to a point where there is a diminishing return. You don’t need 500 miles of range, it’s nice on a trip, and it’s nice not to have to stop at a gas station as much, but when you are topping up power at home overnight and when you park other places, 500 miles of range is overkill. 300 miles of range is all anybody really needs in order to drive a car on a daily basis.
My ONLY concern about getting an EV is when I travel to rural places where charging infrastructure is nonexistent. For my daily use, an EV with 200 miles range is plenty, 300 is super generous.
There are also additional benefits of EVs people will
like. Dramatically less maintenance. No fuel cost obviously, and the driving experience is just great for a daily car.
"But EV's only make up 2% of worldwide sales" - so why even bother to whine about EV's to the US and Japanese governments??
I assume Toyota is lobbying against governments implementing further unnatural 'incentives' (and ice penalties) to grow the EV market. The current 2% is not relevant. Norway is a great example of a completely distorted market. It's not that Norwegians are smarter or whatever, it's that EVs were subsidized so much there, that it made little sense to buy anything else. But there's more people in metro Atlanta than all of Norway, so not really relevant globally.
I believe though that greater EV incentives will be coming because of the shrill and ever growing "climate change!" hysteria. this will (again) play right into China's hands, as they begin to bring dirt cheap EVs to market to scorch the earth for any competitors. Especially if they limit lithium and battery exports.
When it comes to range, you get to a point where there is a diminishing return. You don’t need 500 miles of range, it’s nice on a trip, and it’s nice not to have to stop at a gas station as much, but when you are topping up power at home overnight and when you park other places, 500 miles of range is overkill. 300 miles of range is all anybody really needs in order to drive a car on a daily basis.
the 'range issue' isn't so much about range, as it is about recharging time and availability. both of those things should improve a lot, taking away a key objection to EVs.
07-27-21, 04:20 PM
