GFerg

​​​​​I Interesting.... A Camry L would be an alternative. I am curious as to what they will do with the next ES as well since it was on the Avalon's stretched Camry platform I believe. Also, the 6 cylinder engine could potentially be the discontinued for the next gen Camry/ES.

Motorola

I wouldn't bet against the ES growing even more and replacing the LS outright. Heck it already has more interior space than the LS500.

Toyota is putting all of its eggs in the crossover basket, and I can honestly see the LS's flagship role overtaken by a 3-row RX-based CUV. There have been rumors of such a vehicle (the TX) for months now.

Kira X

iTrader: (24)

This is disappointing to hear but it’s not like I’d ever buy an Avalon, used or new, anyway. I’ve found every single version of the Avalon to have an ugly exterior compared to the Camry and ES. They were solid cars and the TRD version looked cool.

It’s weird seeing all of the sedans fade away. It seems like everybody wants to make 20 different crossovers and no sedans/coupes/wagons anymore.

Bob04

This crossover fad was predicted many years ago. If only people had listened sooner.

mmarshall

No, talk is NOT always cheap....especially when it comes to vehicles. First, I did not necessarily abandon sedans......they are, one by one, abandoning me. Second, everyone's driving needs may change over time.....right now, a small crossover fits me best, but that is no guarantee of the future. Third, you yourself (and your wife) have shown a lot of variance in your own vehicles.....from JGCs to minivans to sedans to six-figure sedans....plus all of the different vehicles you owned before you became a part of CL. Fourth, when I talk about the vehicle-market, I don't just think of myself, but of others.....and what THEIR choices (and potential choices) are also going to be. I don't formally get paid for it like you do (I don't need to, with my good retirement income)...but, like you help people find homes, I help people find new (and sometimes used) vehicles. Fifth, this went far beyond just me. GM paid an enormous price for its decision to ax sedan production and/or shut down those plants.....it triggered the largest UAW strike in 50 years, and cost the company billions. And, believe me, that kind of talk wasn't cheap. Ford, for similar reasons, is probably very lucky that they were not also hit....the fact that its labor-contract was still in effect at the time of GM's strike probably saved them from a similar fate.

mmarshall

Back to the Avalon BTW, I did consider one (2017-2018) when I got my Lacrosse....in fact, I did a thread on that. I knew that Avalons probably had more durable and reliable engines/transmissions, and better reliability overall, but I honestly didn't like the flimsy interior hardware, tinny body sheet metal, and front-end styling....although the Lacrosse's sheet metal didn't seem much better. I was also pleased with the level of service that my GM dealership was giving me.

tex2670

You make 2 good points here, but I feel like you are looking at the data backwards.

1. People's needs change over time. Not just you, but everyone. So many of those people see crossovers, and say "That car meets my needs better than a sedan." It's not just about aging, and getting in or out of cars. It's about transporting your kids, dog, stuff; liking the higher seating position.

2. Sedans aren't abandoning you - people are abandoning sedans (see #1 above). I know you think there is a conspiracy by auto manufacturers to push people into more profitable crossovers, but just look at the market. You think a Nissan Kicks gets the company substantially more profit than a Versa or Sentra? Companies are producing crossovers in every size and shape because that's what customers want. The market has been very clear about this.

Toys4RJill

Yeah..Avalon was never the car for you. But, I was also shocked at your dismay for that terrible stop start feature your Lacrosse had an how you used to always try to outsmart it And that electronic shifter was always something so confusing…. Oh well, you have a cross over now

UDel

That would not happen unless Lexus wants to just be a very 2nd Tier at most premium company. The ES sells because it is pretty inexpensive, offers a lot of car for the money, not because it is all that desirable/aspirational like a flagship luxury sedan should be or even a mid level sedan. A 3 row RX based CUV is not going to take over where the LS is either, if Lexus would make a move like that they would not be seen much as a luxury company anymore, just a seller of nicer Toyota's. LS's problem is its odd/awkward styling, odd interior styling, less roomy then previous version and especially lack of V8, the LS name can still be fixed and give traditional LS buyers the car they want to upgrade to, they clearly don't want what is being currently offered.

UDel

I wouldn't say that, if companies start putting out better looking sedans, equipping them better for rear seat passengers people may go back to sedans, give up those ugly CUV's. EV"s make up less then 2% of sales in the US, there is no demand for them aside from a couple cities in California where they sell in droves.

LexFinally

There is one maker still playing in this class: Chrysler, with the 300 and Charger. But that's it, AFAIK.

SW17LS

Given your reasons for going to a crossover, I don't see you going back to a sedan. And thats the point, where are all the people who went to crossovers and then back to a sedan? There are extremely few....I can't think of anybody actually, on CL Paul did...

Not really. I have owned a luxury sedan since I have been buying vehicles for myself. I have only ever purchased luxury sedans for myself. What has changed is how much I can afford to spend on one, that has steadily increased over time and each one I've bought has been better and more expensive as my income has increased. Of what I have bought for myself: 03 ES300, 10 ES350, 13 GS350, 15 LS460, 17 LS460L, 20 S560. How is that "a lot of variation"?

Same is true of my wife. She bought one car on her own, her 04 Prius, and then every car she's had has been a family multipurpose vehicle, the size and type of which has evolved with our needs. We're not going to all of a sudden go buy a sedan for her to drive, she doesn't want one. What she's had, 04 Prius, 11 Grand Cherokee, 14 Grand Cherokee, 15 Sedona, 17 Pacifica, 20 Pacifica. Not a lot of variation there either, even the Prius it too was a multipurpose vehicle with a hatch.

I'd say the cars we've had have a remakable LACK of variance, but really an evolution of the same types of cars.

But my question is how can you be surprised that they stop selling sedans when you yourself are a consumer that has stopped buying sedans?

Exactly.

I doubt that. They have done that and people haven't gone back to sedans.

pbm317

Higher h-point for improved ingress/egress, along with better visibility on the road, similar interior space thanks to cabin/seat height with a smaller footprint vehicle and pretty minimal MPG tradeoff vs the "SUVs" of 20 years ago are exactly why sedans have died.

And also why folks like MMarshall, the last holdouts on sedans, have since moved on. Crazy to not be able to connect the dots here.

The "coupe/sportback" SUVs are the new "sedans"

LexFinally

MMarshall isn't the last holdout for sedans. Evidently I am, since my next car will be one.

Thank you for making the best case in favor of SUVs that I've seen in a while. I sincerely find it informative.

That said, all things being equal, sedan platforms still have better handling, better ride, better braking, better acceleration, better fuel economy, and in the current environment, lower pricing. To me, this last part explains automakers' eagerness to switch to SUVs —they can charge thousands more for the same content (Legacy vs. Outback, Impreza vs. Crosstour, Fit vs. HR-V, CR-V vs. Civic, RAV4 vs. Corolla, etc, etc, etc..). Are people willing to pay that difference? Yes. Does that make the SUV version the better value objectively? Not necessarily. Just because little Johnny runs off the cliff doesn't mean I have to.

And we're not talking the last dodo here. The Camry, Corolla, Civic, and Accord still sell very well, and even the Fusion and Malibu moved a lot of units despite their makers' neglect right up to their discontinuation decisions. There are still millions of people who think a sedan makes sense for them.

mogi68

I went from a Subaru Outback to my GS350 a couple of months ago. The GS is great, and I love driving it, but I really find myself missing the cargo capability of the wagon form factor.

I'm going to keep the GS for a very long time but I'll likely pick up an old SUV or small truck for hauling once the used market cools off a bit