Dealership Practices
#136
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I can’t name one person I know who likes the process of buying a car. Not even me, and I’m as close to an expert as one can be. I respect your internal “surveys” show that people are satisfied with the service they got within the confines of the process, but that doesn’t mean that they like the process. If 90% of people really liked the process this discussion wouldn’t exist.
Also, every car dealer I have ever dealt with has all but begged me to give them high marks on those surveys to the point where I felt like I was killing their dog if I gave them a 9 and not a 10. So I would venture to say those surveys tell you nothing accurately.
I like dealerships because I can negotiate them against each other and that benefits me because I pay less. If I can’t do that any longer and it’s gonna be MSRP, I don’t want to go through that process. What’s the point?
Also, every car dealer I have ever dealt with has all but begged me to give them high marks on those surveys to the point where I felt like I was killing their dog if I gave them a 9 and not a 10. So I would venture to say those surveys tell you nothing accurately.
I like dealerships because I can negotiate them against each other and that benefits me because I pay less. If I can’t do that any longer and it’s gonna be MSRP, I don’t want to go through that process. What’s the point?
#137
Driver School Candidate
![Smile](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif)
I can’t name one person I know who likes the process of buying a car. Not even me, and I’m as close to an expert as one can be. I respect your internal “surveys” show that people are satisfied with the service they got within the confines of the process, but that doesn’t mean that they like the process. If 90% of people really liked the process this discussion wouldn’t exist.
Also, every car dealer I have ever dealt with has all but begged me to give them high marks on those surveys to the point where I felt like I was killing their dog if I gave them a 9 and not a 10. So I would venture to say those surveys tell you nothing accurately.
I like dealerships because I can negotiate them against each other and that benefits me because I pay less. If I can’t do that any longer and it’s gonna be MSRP, I don’t want to go through that process. What’s the point?
Also, every car dealer I have ever dealt with has all but begged me to give them high marks on those surveys to the point where I felt like I was killing their dog if I gave them a 9 and not a 10. So I would venture to say those surveys tell you nothing accurately.
I like dealerships because I can negotiate them against each other and that benefits me because I pay less. If I can’t do that any longer and it’s gonna be MSRP, I don’t want to go through that process. What’s the point?
On the other hand, I can assure you no-one in the business enjoys selling cars to self professed "close to an expert" folks. Another news flash, your not...it is called delusional!
#138
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Well, here is a new one for you. You have now heard from someone who likes buying cars. I buy a number of new cars in my retirement and rather enjoy the process.
On the other hand, I can assure you no-one in the business enjoys selling cars to self professed "close to an expert" folks. Another news flash, your not...it is called delusional!
On the other hand, I can assure you no-one in the business enjoys selling cars to self professed "close to an expert" folks. Another news flash, your not...it is called delusional!
Millennials ESPECIALLY aren't interested in that, and they're the largest group of new car buyers and will be for the next couple of decades. Ignore their desires at your peril.
And I am very experienced in negotiating and buying new cars, I have done it many times in my life (I buy a new car for myself about every other year) and help others do it, including people on this site (I negotiate 5-6 new car purchases every year). I am actually great to deal with for car salespeople. I'm a salesperson myself and am not one of those people who believes that car salespeople and dealers don't deserve to earn any profit or don't deserve respect. When I'm ready to buy, you can sell me a car in 10 minutes.
But...people who want to take advantage of me and sell be a bunch of worthless BS and make me think a deal is in my interest when its not...then no they wont like me.
Your responses here and attitude here reinforce every negative sentiment we all have towards your business.
Example?
Some of them we sold and some of the deals we didn't make were our best deals. I can though assure you my people had fun messing with them when we figured out they knew everything!
![](https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.clublexus.com-vbulletin/1000x565/matilda_worst_used_car_salesmen_harry_wormwood_a1d67dc0184528d0504f1bb7dd560a96bd3cd26b.jpg)
Last edited by SW17LS; 09-26-21 at 04:13 PM.
#139
Dysfunctional Veteran
![](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/ranks/rank-mod2.gif)
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Well...you were able to compress many of the more misleading talking points about the subject in a very few paragraphs! All of that has been written ad nauseam by journalism majors who once bought a car. Not written though by people with true actual experience in the business. The same nonsense has been written for generations but here we are with the same system...still...more than 100 years later!
When someone actually starts explaining how to change the dynamics of the manufacturer/dealer financial relationship will any of this nonsense make sense. Of course that requires folks who understand what that relationship is. All we have heard so far is the same old talk about what the millennials will want. Factually, they can buy a car TODAY and never leave their keyboard. All they need do is pay what the dealer asks and the process will be short and sweet and they will deliver to the door just like Bezos. In reality though, folks think somehow they will bypass the dealer, buy direct, and somehow save money doing it. That is the real driver of the thought and logically fails on so many fronts.
When someone actually starts explaining how to change the dynamics of the manufacturer/dealer financial relationship will any of this nonsense make sense. Of course that requires folks who understand what that relationship is. All we have heard so far is the same old talk about what the millennials will want. Factually, they can buy a car TODAY and never leave their keyboard. All they need do is pay what the dealer asks and the process will be short and sweet and they will deliver to the door just like Bezos. In reality though, folks think somehow they will bypass the dealer, buy direct, and somehow save money doing it. That is the real driver of the thought and logically fails on so many fronts.
"All they need to do is pay what the dealer asks" ??
Really?????? I went to a Ram dealer for service not long ago. They had a Ram TRX in the showroom with an MSRP of $94,xxx. Off to the side of the window sticker, it had a list of "dealer added features" like window tint ($499.99), wheel locks ($599.99), Nitrogen tire fill ($399.99) and a few others, along with a ADM +$50,000. So the total price of the vehicle would have been over $150,000 had I wanted to buy it by "just paying the dealer what they're asking". How, in the name of blue **** is that fair to consumers? It isn't. Nobody pays $500 for window tint unless its the super expensive ceramic stuff, and even then, that's a stretch. Wheel locks (OEM are McGard), are $55 on Amazon. Nitrogen tire fill for $400? Discount tire will remove the air from your tires and refill with nitrogen for $25ea. Tell me that isn't highway robbery, and I have some oceanfront property up in Oklahoma i think you might be interested in. And it isn't just that ram. Every car on the lot at that dealer, and then ford dealer next to it had one of these ADM's on it. some were only $5k, and one was as high as $98,000 (a Ford GT in the Ford Showroom). There were also a number of roush mustangs they had not been able to sell, and they too were marked up. So if the dealer can ask whatever they want, we are just supposed to pay it? Who's the delusional one here?
most dealers do NOT make this simple.
'internet' interactions with dealers i've had...
fill out the web form detailing (per their form's requests) what i'm looking for and answering their question on how i'd like to be interacted with (email or text for example). and this is what happens:
1) no response
2) instant phonecalls asking me to come in the dealer or basically asking me again all the questions on the form
3) an email or text with links to models in stock that are NOTHING LIKE what i inquired about
'love' other mailers i get from dealers:
1) offering a trade in price on a car i LEASED and have already returned months or YEARS ago.
2) offering a trade in price or extended warranty on a car i SOLD BACK to the dealership months or YEARS ago.
makes me think the dealers have money to waste... and waste my time, with their plain envelopes - of course the 'presorted' rate is a clue that it's junk but ya never know.![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
as far as "paying what the dealer asks" - that right there is why i hate dealers. for my last 2 transactions (one purchase, one lease) i was utterly lied to with 'quotes' (one saying over msrp was normal, this was last year, and another with 'numbers' that had no basis in reality, deliberately designed to be as confusing... the lease i ended up about $200 less a month than what they quoted and the purchase after the initial 'over msrp' was about $7K below MSRP. the lease i picked up the car in person and the 'paperwork' and it still took a couple of hours for the f&i and other b.s. the purchase i had delivered to me from out of state, and thankfully i never had to set foot in the dealership.
in the 10 or so cars i've bought/leased i can only remember one transaction that was pleasant.
and you wonder why people hate dealers?
and i think that's what guys like you who've been 'in the business' don't get... it's not entirely about money, it's about being lied to, manipulated, and wasting the customers' time. i would GLADLY pay a reasonable price more than i would ideally like to pay to not have to deal with all that.
if i buy a tesla, it's on the website, click a few buttons, done. very appealing!
'internet' interactions with dealers i've had...
fill out the web form detailing (per their form's requests) what i'm looking for and answering their question on how i'd like to be interacted with (email or text for example). and this is what happens:
1) no response
2) instant phonecalls asking me to come in the dealer or basically asking me again all the questions on the form
3) an email or text with links to models in stock that are NOTHING LIKE what i inquired about
'love' other mailers i get from dealers:
1) offering a trade in price on a car i LEASED and have already returned months or YEARS ago.
2) offering a trade in price or extended warranty on a car i SOLD BACK to the dealership months or YEARS ago.
makes me think the dealers have money to waste... and waste my time, with their plain envelopes - of course the 'presorted' rate is a clue that it's junk but ya never know.
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
as far as "paying what the dealer asks" - that right there is why i hate dealers. for my last 2 transactions (one purchase, one lease) i was utterly lied to with 'quotes' (one saying over msrp was normal, this was last year, and another with 'numbers' that had no basis in reality, deliberately designed to be as confusing... the lease i ended up about $200 less a month than what they quoted and the purchase after the initial 'over msrp' was about $7K below MSRP. the lease i picked up the car in person and the 'paperwork' and it still took a couple of hours for the f&i and other b.s. the purchase i had delivered to me from out of state, and thankfully i never had to set foot in the dealership.
in the 10 or so cars i've bought/leased i can only remember one transaction that was pleasant.
and you wonder why people hate dealers?
and i think that's what guys like you who've been 'in the business' don't get... it's not entirely about money, it's about being lied to, manipulated, and wasting the customers' time. i would GLADLY pay a reasonable price more than i would ideally like to pay to not have to deal with all that.
if i buy a tesla, it's on the website, click a few buttons, done. very appealing!
There you go again...mixing and matching. You say if you buy a Tesla...you just push a button. A little simplification but yes, you will pay whatever price they think appropriate today and it will by recent history, change tomorrow. Of course, it will be MSRP. I don't know where you shop, but in normal times, tell the guy you want to pay sticker at any dealership and the deal just got real simple.
According to you "people hate dealers". Yes, some folks with a basic thought process they are always getting screwed certainly do. But, here is a news flash, not everyone agrees. Ninety-percent of customers surveyed are satisfied with their latest sales experience. I will though agree that I met a number of folks with your attitude over the decades. Some of them we sold and some of the deals we didn't make were our best deals. I can though assure you my people had fun messing with them when we figured out they knew everything!
According to you "people hate dealers". Yes, some folks with a basic thought process they are always getting screwed certainly do. But, here is a news flash, not everyone agrees. Ninety-percent of customers surveyed are satisfied with their latest sales experience. I will though agree that I met a number of folks with your attitude over the decades. Some of them we sold and some of the deals we didn't make were our best deals. I can though assure you my people had fun messing with them when we figured out they knew everything!
I can’t name one person I know who likes the process of buying a car. Not even me, and I’m as close to an expert as one can be. I respect your internal “surveys” show that people are satisfied with the service they got within the confines of the process, but that doesn’t mean that they like the process. If 90% of people really liked the process this discussion wouldn’t exist.
Also, every car dealer I have ever dealt with has all but begged me to give them high marks on those surveys to the point where I felt like I was killing their dog if I gave them a 9 and not a 10. So I would venture to say those surveys tell you nothing accurately.
I like dealerships because I can negotiate them against each other and that benefits me because I pay less. If I can’t do that any longer and it’s gonna be MSRP, I don’t want to go through that process. What’s the point?
Also, every car dealer I have ever dealt with has all but begged me to give them high marks on those surveys to the point where I felt like I was killing their dog if I gave them a 9 and not a 10. So I would venture to say those surveys tell you nothing accurately.
I like dealerships because I can negotiate them against each other and that benefits me because I pay less. If I can’t do that any longer and it’s gonna be MSRP, I don’t want to go through that process. What’s the point?
Well, here is a new one for you. You have now heard from someone who likes buying cars. I buy a number of new cars in my retirement and rather enjoy the process.
On the other hand, I can assure you no-one in the business enjoys selling cars to self professed "close to an expert" folks. Another news flash, your not...it is called delusional!
On the other hand, I can assure you no-one in the business enjoys selling cars to self professed "close to an expert" folks. Another news flash, your not...it is called delusional!
Last edited by ArmyofOne; 09-26-21 at 04:15 PM.
#140
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I liked the way Saturn used to do it, but that's probably water over the dam now, partly because Saturn itself is gone, and partly because the car-market right now is so skewed that even the typical policies and processes of a just a year ago pretty much don't apply any more.
#141
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
then you mention "sticker"... as you know, many dealers not put THEIR OWN stickers on the cars, with "dealer packages", extra "dealer fees" and (especially these days) extra "dealer markup". so the "sticker" isn't even msrp, it's WAY WAY higher.
as far as paying sticker making the deal "real simple" sure, and then the dealer does the hard sell on things like these on top:
- nitrogen in the tires
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
- upholstry/paint protection
- ppf
- rust protection (please)
- tire/wheel insurance
- maintenance plans
- pinstriping (ugh)
- on, and on, and on....
Ninety-percent of customers surveyed are satisfied with their latest sales experience.
I will though agree that I met a number of folks with your attitude over the decades. Some of them we sold and some of the deals we didn't make were our best deals. I can though assure you my people had fun messing with them when we figured out they knew everything!
i do recognize that many consumers are difficult, including those who just aren't serious about buying anything.
it is an adversarial system basically.
![Agreed](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/boink.gif)
people who want to take advantage of me and sell be a bunch of worthless BS and make me think a deal is in my interest when its not...then no they wont like me.
#142
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
i
you're in the real estate business, and i expect a far higher percentage of people are actually satisfied by their realtor's efforts. sure some realtors are lazy, some play games, but many bend over backwards to help buyers and sellers get what they want. i've only done a half dozen real estate transactions, but i'd rate all of them FAR more professionally handled and satisfying than any car dealer transaction
you're in the real estate business, and i expect a far higher percentage of people are actually satisfied by their realtor's efforts. sure some realtors are lazy, some play games, but many bend over backwards to help buyers and sellers get what they want. i've only done a half dozen real estate transactions, but i'd rate all of them FAR more professionally handled and satisfying than any car dealer transaction
#143
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by Army of One
Really?????? I went to a Ram dealer for service not long ago. They had a Ram TRX in the showroom with an MSRP of $94,xxx. Off to the side of the window sticker, it had a list of "dealer added features" like window tint ($499.99), wheel locks ($599.99), Nitrogen tire fill ($399.99) and a few others, along with a ADM +$50,000. So the total price of the vehicle would have been over $150,000 had I wanted to buy it by "just paying the dealer what they're asking". How, in the name of blue **** is that fair to consumers? It isn't. Nobody pays $500 for window tint unless its the super expensive ceramic stuff, and even then, that's a stretch. Wheel locks (OEM are McGard), are $55 on Amazon. Nitrogen tire fill for $400? Discount tire will remove the air from your tires and refill with nitrogen for $25ea. Tell me that isn't highway robbery, and I have some oceanfront property up in Oklahoma i think you might be interested in. And it isn't just that ram. Every car on the lot at that dealer, and then ford dealer next to it had one of these ADM's on it. some were only $5k, and one was as high as $98,000 (a Ford GT in the Ford Showroom). There were also a number of roush mustangs they had not been able to sell, and they too were marked up. So if the dealer can ask whatever they want, we are just supposed to pay it?
Oh, and BTW, you are correct about $25 Nitrogen tire-fills. My brother got that package on his Kia Sportage, at the dealership, for something like $5 or $10 a tire....it was ridiculously cheap. $400 is ludicrous.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-26-21 at 05:13 PM.
#144
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
As usual you are completely off the subject. We aren’t talking about public assistance or draws on the economy. We’re talking about what companies who manufacturer products care about, and it’s who actually buys their product.
#145
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
You, not me, brought up the issue of bank-accounts adding to, or subtracting from the economy. I merely clarified it with my reply.
But I agree that larger issues are involved here. What Josh saw at the Stellantis-dealer, on that new Ram, is nothing short of ludicrous. They wanted, in effect, 150K...more than even your S-550 was worth.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-26-21 at 05:32 PM.
#146
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I sort of disagree with you. People don’t really like buying cars…it’s not the dealer. Here is why IMO. First off people fall for the BS marketing of cars…so they believe they need this brand or that brand....then you have the fact that cars are depreciating assets, so with that knowledge everyone “knows” that new cars are bad for you. Then you have to deal with then second largest expense in the household, nobody likes to part with $40,000…then you have car payments…most people either have car payments for the rest of their lives or they have payments for 5-7 years and then the stop for a little while and then they start again…so then there is interest on those car payments..anyone who says paying interest is great on a depreciating asset is not playing with a full deck..so then the person is at the dealer, the facility is designed to assist with the purchase not detract from it…in a dealer that has nice new Mercedes cars, one feels good, they forget about the outside world for a while, they deal with a trendy well dressed man/woman/non binary or whatever and this salesperson is supposed to talk to them in a special way that is designed to make them forget that they are about to purchase a car, that is likely more expensive that they need, requires interest to get the loan, might or might not have mileage restrictions and is a depreciating asset. (What a horrible concept). Many buyers also have the problem in that the current car they has is worn down, is out warranty and may need a major repair…so the pressure is on.
so, you add up all of the above and I haven’t even got to shady dealers that do weird stuff…the internet and buying on line is not going to solve the issues above and make people feel better. So the majority of buyers just won’t buy a new car they will talk themselves out of a new car unless one is absolutely required.
Buyers have an equal responsibility in the whole debate…most people want to ring out every single possible dollar as evidence in some of the posts in this forum.
Buyers are instinctively on guard at dealers because there usually is so much money on the line.
so, you add up all of the above and I haven’t even got to shady dealers that do weird stuff…the internet and buying on line is not going to solve the issues above and make people feel better. So the majority of buyers just won’t buy a new car they will talk themselves out of a new car unless one is absolutely required.
Buyers have an equal responsibility in the whole debate…most people want to ring out every single possible dollar as evidence in some of the posts in this forum.
Buyers are instinctively on guard at dealers because there usually is so much money on the line.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 09-26-21 at 06:18 PM.
#147
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
But I agree that larger issues are involved here. What Josh saw at the Stellantis-dealer, on that new Ram, is nothing short of ludicrous. They wanted, in effect, 150K...more than even your S-550 was worth.
Buyers have an equal responsibility in the whole debate…most people want to ring out every single possible dollar as evidence in some of the posts in this forum.
#148
Lexus Fanatic
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
OK, 560....sorry for the typo.
Much of the discussion in this entire thread has been about vehicle prices, though.
My Verano purchase went quite smoothly...I didn't have to order it, but bought it right out of the showroom after a test drive. In my last two experiences with new Buicks, though, GM itself, with its marketing practices and production delays, made the process a lot worse than the dealer. If you remember, the Lacrosse had to be re-ordered three times because of plant-retooling and a change in the standard powertrain from a V6 to a Hybrid-4, and a reduction in base price. While not everyone may agree with this, personally, I'd rather deal with a jerk of a salesman in the buying-process and have the factory handle the order smoothly, than have the dealership kiss one's a** on the deal, and then have the factory screw it up.
Much of the discussion in this entire thread has been about vehicle prices, though.
It really is the dealer. Most people are excited about getting a new car, its the process of buying it they hate.
#149
Forum Administrator
![](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/ranks/rank-admin2.gif)
iTrader: (2)
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
SW17LS, let the moderators do the moderating please.
MMarshall, having said that he has a point - let's reign it in, you keep wandering way off topic in this thread.
ArmyofOne and Jallen4 - knock off the personal commentary.
MMarshall, having said that he has a point - let's reign it in, you keep wandering way off topic in this thread.
ArmyofOne and Jallen4 - knock off the personal commentary.