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Consider, though, that most people don't have the experience you had in the Army Motorpool and your ASE training. If a CHECK ENGINE light comes on, for instance, they don't know how to hook up a scanner and get a code....or, necessarily, the proper way to deal wth that code. Working on today's vehicles is not like it was when I learned to drive, where, for instance, if a battery ran dead, you simply took off the two terminals with a half-inch or 10 MM wrench, unscrewed the hold-down clamp, cleaned the terminal-holes with the two-piece steel brush, cleaned the mounting-plate, set the new battery down, reattached the clamp, filled it with water (or acid and water), and reattached the terminals. Today, if you try that without elaborate procedures, you affect much of the car's electronics, and can screw things up. The days of shade-tree mechanics are pretty much gone. So, for people who don't want to (or can't) risk getting stuck with someone else's problems, or can't risk screwing their car up by not doing a job correctly (or taking it to a shop that is perhaps dishonest or unscrupulous), as I see it at least, a brand-new vehicle, for them, is not really a "want"........for the most part, it is a "need". And, yes, as you alluded to, there first has to be new cars before one can have used cars....a used car, by definition, has been previously owned and/or titled/licensed.
ahh, but see that doesn't really work either. It's just an excuse. Nobody taught me "how" to work on cars. My dad taught me the basics, when I was a kid, and carbs, distributors and cleaning ignition points was still a part of the regular maintenance routine, but the vast majority of what I learned, I have learned myself, from real world experience, or from hours and hours of study (in books, forums, interwebz) and work, and some even from youtube. And it was mostly out of necessity. I couldn't afford to pay someone to change my alternator, so I figured out how to do it myself. That sense of accomplishment is what many Americans are missing today, and it shows.
Youtube is available to the masses, and code readers are $14 at walmart. Don't know how to hook up the scanner? guess what, there's a video for that too. I am not some sort of MacGyver that just makes **** up as I go LOL.
Edit: ok, maybe sometimes I am, but not usually And yeah, changing a battery is pretty much still exactly like that, except for the damned annoying engine covers on most cars *COUGH Looking at you TOYOTA *COUGH*, and the battery water/acid. You're showing your age there a bit
I actually wound up chatting with the GM of a more local dealer and even after telling him what was going on with my Nori Green he had his Sales Manager send me a spec sheet for an incoming GX. The GM said they don't do any kind of markups, no BS fees, and no documentation fee. They will also deliver it to me for free as I'm within 200 miles of them.
He was a cool guy and when I told him that I had talked to them about a month ago the lady I was working with would say one thing then change it and told me they found a GX when they didn't that I just decided to keep looking. I told him if he didn't want to work with me because of that I totally understood.
He said thato was working with the new person and that she decided selling vehicles wasn't for her.
I believe I will get a GX at some point and am completely fine with not getting the Nori Green at this point.
These are the people you probably want to do business with. In the current market, maybe this is the best you can expect.
As noted, if you can wait it out, then that would be ideal. Let the market stabilize and hopefully pricing will normalize.
For those dealers that sell msrp +++, then tack on out of market fees, just walk away. A good tool to alert other potential customers is to post on the dealers FB page or simply leave a review. I also like to name names, if possible. Some dealers are unscrupulous and I enjoy pointing that out.
Also, it’s a dog eat dog world out there, I don’t care to leave any money on the table. Always lowest price with me and always will be. Some people are soft or care not to negotiate for the best possible deal, that’s not me.
Dealers make much more money on service. There is a reason most dealers have large, palatial stores, because they make $$$.
I'm not judging anyone. The simple fact is, if you take opinion out of it, and go solely based on fact, nobody needs a brand-new car. Not one person. A brand-new car is a want, but we do need people to buy them so there are used cars on that market. However, the 2 markets are not the same, at least not for the purposes of this topic.
As far as me being critical of others, I'll admit, my current financial situation is different than most folks. Be that as it may, the dedication, perseverance, and sacrifice it took me to get here is not up for debate. And if I can equip myself with the skills, knowledge and training it requires and persevere, make the sacrifices, then anyone can. 7 years ago I was just a high school graduate. Today, I own an operate 2 successful small businesses, hold 3 degrees and am about to grab my fourth. Nobody did that but me, and furthermore, nobody really even helped me with any of it, and to suggest that any person in America isn't capable of the same kind of change (maybe not the exact same thing) is laughable. The same people that cry about that are the ones that think the world owes them something. News flash, the world doesn't owe anybody anything, and very very few (if any) American's are successful simply by being lucky.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anyone is inferior to me. I said if they are, it is largely, if not entirely, due to choices they have or haven't made. There is not one single person in this country that isn't allowed to attend school. Even post-secondary institutions (barring the highly exclusive ones) don't turn people away. Everyone can get a student loan or FASFA (the latter if they qualify). Some people can join the military and pay for it that way. The ones that can't due to physical or mental issues, or age, can explore those other avenues. Every life is a product of the choices that person makes at the most fundamental level. I know lots of different people from all walks of life and the ones who are successful aren't successful because of where they were born or what they look like. They're successful because they put their nose to the grindstone and did what had to be done to better themselves and their lives, and they (like me) make no apologies for it.
That's like the phrase "Must be nice" Hearing that pisses me right off. Yeah, it is nice. You know what wasn't nice? Laying in a human-feces-infested ditch in Iraq waiting for mortars to land on my head. Working 20 hours, sleeping for 2, pulling a 2 hour guard shift, then working another 20 hours. And not just any kind of work. The physical, backbreaking, laboring kind. 30+ mile walks in 80lbs of gear with 40lbs in a backpack in sweltering 120F temps. Watching your squad leader step on a buried IED in front of you and when the red mist and dust clears, only a crater and a helmet with some brain matter remain. Past the military (because to an extent, the military is a choice one makes. Once you're in though, you don't have a choice), working 100+ hour work weeks after I left the service for **** pay with no degree, simply because that's what was necessary. The struggles of working all that overtime while taking 21 credit hours per semester in undergrad coursework, so I could get my degree quicker and better myself for my family. None of that **** was nice. None of it was fun.
So yeah, it's absolutely nice. 98% of America has no idea what "bad" really is, and 1% of the 2% that do, have only seen it by traveling abroad as tourists. When you're there living in the same mud huts with the kids, kicking a soccer ball that is flat and been patched so many times its unrecognizable, and giving those same kids bottled water because the source of their drinking water in their village is also the same canal that the sewage runs into, then will you know what "bad" really is. Sorry, the "woe is me" sob stories just don't hold weight with me. I am nobody special, just some random average guy, with average high school grades, graduated in the middle of my class, had a short (by some standards) and relatively average military career, and rather than get out and sit around on my ***, I decided I was going to make something of myself. The beauty of the American dream is that, if you can dream it, you can do it. My dad had a saying, and it's one I live by. "Can't, never did nothin'".
Also, if the government would take its damn hands out of the pockets of the middle class, the whole economic system could shift drastically. But alas, that's a pipe dream.
[/rant]
Annnnnywayyyys, so yeah, new cars, not used. I get most folks need a car. nobody needs a brand-new one.
That's a stunning personal history, and it has all my respect. I (and 99.9% of the the rest of us) have nothing to match it. I hope we can someday return to an America where, once again, the level of privation and horror you've had to face is no longer the price of a normal middle-class life.
At a purely economic level, though, mmarshall has a point: If most people—even if due to their own failings of effort or character—can't buy new cars anymore, eventually there won't be enough decent used ones to go around either. In that way, the two markets definitely are related.
It is a very popular topic today, written about by many clueless folks, about how the manufacturer/dealer relationship needs to end. In a brave new world the manufacturers and dealers will all forego maximizing profits and rather change to a totally consumer based program to make the purchase trouble free and a ten minute process on your I-PHONE. It is never going to happen but it has sold a number of articles and gives folks something to dream about.
The part those not in the business fail to understand is the symbiotic financial relationship between the dealers and the manufacturers. That relationship has worked for more than a 100 years and is unlikely to change anytime soon. Any useful thesis will require a thorough knowledge of this relationship or will simply be a re-hash of what amateurs have been writing now for some time.
For your thesis, you will have to explore reasons why a brand (manufacturer) would want to create commodities within its brand and how doing so would create an advantage over other brands that do not do so. You might also have to delve into the reason dealerships exist and how the relationship benefits the brand in the distribution of its commodity while making that commodity more available to consumers.
I actually wound up chatting with the GM of a more local dealer and even after telling him what was going on with my Nori Green he had his Sales Manager send me a spec sheet for an incoming GX. The GM said they don't do any kind of markups, no BS fees, and no documentation fee. They will also deliver it to me for free as I'm within 200 miles of them.
He was a cool guy and when I told him that I had talked to them about a month ago the lady I was working with would say one thing then change it and told me they found a GX when they didn't that I just decided to keep looking. I told him if he didn't want to work with me because of that I totally understood.
He said thato was working with the new person and that she decided selling vehicles wasn't for her.
I believe I will get a GX at some point and am completely fine with not getting the Nori Green at this point.
Another very valid option is to go straight to the SM or GM like you did here
ahh, but see that doesn't really work either. It's just an excuse. Nobody taught me "how" to work on cars. My dad taught me the basics, when I was a kid, and carbs, distributors and cleaning ignition points was still a part of the regular maintenance routine, but the vast majority of what I learned, I have learned myself, from real world experience, or from hours and hours of study (in books, forums, interwebz) and work, and some even from youtube. And it was mostly out of necessity. I couldn't afford to pay someone to change my alternator, so I figured out how to do it myself. That sense of accomplishment is what many Americans are missing today, and it shows.
I agree with this 100%. My dad didn't teach me anything, didn't even want to teach me how to drive because he didn't/doesn't have the patience for it. I learned how to change tires, batteries, engine oil, etc. on my own, largely from watching my uncle, who used to be a shade-tree mechanic in his spare time, very closely, and asking questions while he worked. Anything else I could Google/YouTube. There is so much information out there today, some people just aren't as interested in putting in the leg work.
I would look at the coming domination of the car industry by millennials as part of your thesis. Millennials want to buy things just as you describe, online from home. Those wants are going to have a huge impact on what the car sales platform looks like over the next decade. You can see dealers and manufacturers coming around to this. Ford for instance and their new direct purchase program. Tesla.
The real impediment in the US is the franchise agreements that manufacturers have with dealers, and the power that dealers have to keep manufacturers from selling cars directly. If you look at Ford's direct sale program it still involves a dealer, thats because they have to involve a dealer.
As for "must be nice" I hate that comment. Behind every successful person is a lifetime of work, and strife, and sacrifice that you don't see. I'm reminded of this diagram:
Gonna add some alternative to this and some support to the dealer model. They do add value…(it just depends on what side your on) dealers put pressure on pricing so there is cross competition between competing dealer over the same product. This is good for the consumer. Also, from a business point of view, dealers and showroom space are made possible via private investment so that manufactures can focus on one two things…build cars and then market them.
An internet only method already exists. You can buy online currently however, if it went to this model only, most people will not buy online and just cool off on their purchase.
Sad that everyone wants everything for absolutely nothing….so they pick on dealers and thus want to pillage, water down and harass for every possible dollar for their own selfish greed and well being….despicable, disrespectful and disgusting
I do agree millennials need new and fresh perspectives on buying things….
I agree with you about dealers creating cross competition, but right now we’re not seeing any benefit of that.
They currently do still add value. Read in here that some dealers are giving the MSRP to those who are existing customers. For those out of area there is a mark up. Right is not a great time to buy a car if you want to rip dealers off for every dollar
As for "must be nice" I hate that comment. Behind every successful person is a lifetime of work, and strife, and sacrifice that you don't see. I'm reminded of this diagram:
But that also applies to those who own and operate dealerships. Yes, some are born into dealership-families, so one is already at least part-way into the business by birth....in our D.C. area, the Koons, Fitzgerald, Ourisman, Brown, and Rosenthal families are good examples. But, even then, as the diagram shows, it still takes hard work, many hours, and a lot of investment to start and run a large dealership. The difference, though, is that some already have their feet in the door by birth or inheritance, and some don't.
For your thesis, you will have to explore reasons why a brand (manufacturer) would want to create commodities within its brand and how doing so would create an advantage over other brands that do not do so. You might also have to delve into the reason dealerships exist and how the relationship benefits the brand in the distribution of its commodity while making that commodity more available to consumers.
I fully intend to include these things. If you're referring to automakers manufacturing their own IC chips, I've been following that closely.
Originally Posted by jallen4
It is a very popular topic today, written about by many clueless folks, about how the manufacturer/dealer relationship needs to end. In a brave new world the manufacturers and dealers will all forego maximizing profits and rather change to a totally consumer based program to make the purchase trouble free and a ten minute process on your I-PHONE. It is never going to happen but it has sold a number of articles and gives folks something to dream about.
The part those not in the business fail to understand is the symbiotic financial relationship between the dealers and the manufacturers. That relationship has worked for more than a 100 years and is unlikely to change anytime soon. Any useful thesis will require a thorough knowledge of this relationship or will simply be a re-hash of what amateurs have been writing now for some time.
Ehh, thats where you aren't quite right. Millenials don't care about the same things we (the older folks LOL) do. Back in the 60's, when a handshake and a deal meant something, sure. But these days, most young people want the smoothest, easiest possible transaction. Past that, they want total control over that transaction. This is something the dealer model takes away. I have spoken to many young people on campus and also done a few surveys through qualtrics for gathering data. The results of that research seem to indicate that younger people (under 35) don't want to be pestered when buying a car. They already have done their research and know what they want when they arrive on the dealer lot. This doesn't make the process any faster. Some I have spoken with will never buy another car the traditional way after buying from Carvana. That business model, slightly altered, could be extremely successful in the coming years.
Originally Posted by LexWannabe
That's a stunning personal history, and it has all my respect. I (and 99.9% of the the rest of us) have nothing to match it. I hope we can someday return to an America where, once again, the level of privation and horror you've had to face is no longer the price of a normal middle-class life.
At a purely economic level, though, mmarshall has a point: If most people—even if due to their own failings of effort or character—can't buy new cars anymore, eventually there won't be enough decent used ones to go around either. In that way, the two markets definitely are related.
I appreciate that. I didn't share that because i want it to mean anything to anyone, but rather to make a point. I applaud your candid conversation.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
I would look at the coming domination of the car industry by millennials as part of your thesis. Millennials want to buy things just as you describe, online from home. Those wants are going to have a huge impact on what the car sales platform looks like over the next decade. You can see dealers and manufacturers coming around to this. Ford for instance and their new direct purchase program. Tesla.
The real impediment in the US is the franchise agreements that manufacturers have with dealers, and the power that dealers have to keep manufacturers from selling cars directly. If you look at Ford's direct sale program it still involves a dealer, thats because they have to involve a dealer.
As for "must be nice" I hate that comment. Behind every successful person is a lifetime of work, and strife, and sacrifice that you don't see. I'm reminded of this diagram:
-PIC SNIP-
Nailed it.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Gonna add some alternative to this and some support to the dealer model. They do add value…(it just depends on what side your on) dealers put pressure on pricing so there is cross competition between competing dealer over the same product. This is good for the consumer. Also, from a business point of view, dealers and showroom space are made possible via private investment so that manufactures can focus on one two things…build cars and then market them.
An internet only method already exists. You can buy online currently however, if it went to this model only, most people will not buy online and just cool off on their purchase.
Sad that everyone wants everything for absolutely nothing….so they pick on dealers and thus want to pillage, water down and harass for every possible dollar for their own selfish greed and well being….despicable, disrespectful and disgusting
I do agree millennials need new and fresh perspectives on buying things….
To be fair, the dealers have kind of earned that treatment.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
I agree with you about dealers creating cross competition, but right now we’re not seeing any benefit of that.
They currently do still add value. Read in here that some dealers are giving the MSRP to those who are existing customers. For those out of area there is a mark up. Right is not a great time to buy a car if you want to rip dealers off for every dollar
But if I order direct, I always pay MSRP. I want to buy at a dealer because I can negotiate a better deal, if there’s no negotiating I may as well just order direct.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
But that also applies to those who own and operate dealerships. Yes, some are born into dealership-families, so one is already at least part-way into the business by birth....in our D.C. area, the Koons, Fitzgerald, Ourisman, Brown, and Rosenthal families are good examples. But, even then, as the diagram shows, it still takes hard work, many hours, and a lot of investment to start and run a large dealership. The difference, though, is that some already have their feet in the door by birth or inheritance, and some don't.
But that doesn’t mean that they are owed the right to screw their customers. The car buying process is terrible for customers.
Army of One.
Ehh, thats where you aren't quite right.
Millenials don't care about the same things we (the older folks LOL) do. Back in the 60's, when a handshake and a deal meant something, sure. But these days, most young people want the smoothest, easiest possible transaction. Past that, they want total control over that transaction. This is something the dealer model takes away. I have spoken to many young people on campus and also done a few surveys through qualtrics for gathering data. The results of that research seem to indicate that younger people (under 35) don't want to be pestered when buying a car. They already have done their research and know what they want when they arrive on the dealer lot. This doesn't make the process any faster. Some I have spoken with will never buy another car the traditional way after buying from Carvana. That business model, slightly altered, could be extremely successful in the coming years.
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Once again you are ignoring the economics of the dealer/manufacturer relationship. The theory of changing the distribution model has been around forever and obviously had nothing to do with millennials. In the fifties and sixties people "wanted" the cars to be sold like appliances in the department stores. The theory was that Sears could handle all the makes and you could simply stop at one to look at all the cars at once. If you look at Sears stores built in that era many had huge service centers and resembled auto dealerships. As a young salesman I was assured my career would be short if I didn't want to basically be a clerk in a department store.
In the seventies, eighties, and nineties Porsche decided to send a demo of each model to their stores and everything else would go to storage in Reno to be shipped direct to the buyer. Ford started buying existing stores and called them The Collection. They figured they could own all the stores and people would prefer to do business direct. Cadillac announced a plan to pre-build cars for distribution and hold them at the factory for 48 hour delivery to the dealer when the customer decided what he wanted. I sat in meetings being told I could sell part of the land at dealerships as I would no longer need that much inventory space. Two years later I sat in the same seat being told the grand experiment was cancelled and I would need my land after-all.
The new flavor of the month are the millennials and they want an Amazon experience buying a car. A recent survey though shows eighty percent of actual shoppers want the ability to see, touch, smell, compare, and drive the cars they are considering. As long as the automobile is the second most expensive consumer purchase and is as emotional a product reflecting a person's personality as it traditionally has been, catalogue sales will pale in comparison.
Once again I will make the point that until one actually understands the economics of the manufacturer/dealer dynamic there cannot be a realistic and valuable thesis written on the subject. Follow the money!
09-24-21 | 10:20 PM
And yeah, changing a battery is pretty much still exactly like that, except for the damned annoying engine covers on most cars *COUGH Looking at you TOYOTA *COUGH*, and the battery water/acid. You're showing your age there a bit 
Hearing that pisses me right off. Yeah, it is nice. You know what wasn't nice? Laying in a human-feces-infested ditch in Iraq waiting for mortars to land on my head. Working 20 hours, sleeping for 2, pulling a 2 hour guard shift, then working another 20 hours. And not just any kind of work. The physical, backbreaking, laboring kind. 30+ mile walks in 80lbs of gear with 40lbs in a backpack in sweltering 120F temps. Watching your squad leader step on a buried IED in front of you and when the red mist and dust clears, only a crater and a helmet with some brain matter remain. Past the military (because to an extent, the military is a choice one makes. Once you're in though, you don't have a choice), working 100+ hour work weeks after I left the service for **** pay with no degree, simply because that's what was necessary. The struggles of working all that overtime while taking 21 credit hours per semester in undergrad coursework, so I could get my degree quicker and better myself for my family. None of that **** was nice. None of it was fun.
