Dealership Practices
09-25-21, 10:59 AM
#121
Lexus Fanatic
I don't agree, though, that the process is necessarily terrible...it depends on where you go, and who you deal with. For instance, although there are some brands that they don't sell, for what they DO sell, I like the "Fitz" way, at Old Man's Fitzgerald's shops. Somewhat like the old no-haggle deals at Saturn and Scion, except that Fitz offers a choice of two no-haggle deals off of MSRP, one (with a slightly higher price and less discount) that includes some more free maintenance. At least, that's the way Fitz used to do it...I haven't shopped there with anyone for the last several years.
Rosenthal generally had low sales-prices and healthy discounts.....but used (IMO) unacceptably high-pressure sales-tactics, and a second-rate service department.
09-25-21, 11:01 AM
#122
Driver School Candidate
But if I order direct, I always pay MSRP. I want to buy at a dealer because I can negotiate a better deal, if there’s no negotiating I may as well just order direct.
But that doesn’t mean that they are owed the right to screw their customers. The car buying process is terrible for customers.
But that doesn’t mean that they are owed the right to screw their customers. The car buying process is terrible for customers.
09-25-21, 11:04 AM
#123
Lexus Fanatic
In real estate…when there is adequate supply and demand….how many people would want to truly buy online for one price…with one click……no offers…?
09-25-21, 11:31 AM
#124
Lexus Fanatic
the thing about millennials, they are not the “flavor of the month” they are going to be the primary consumer for things like cars for the next 20 years. Their buying preferences will have an impact.
That’s my point, right now because of the inventory shortage everybody is paying MSRP. It’s basically impossible to negotiate off MSRP on most cars right now. If you can, it’s something like $500 or $1000 that isn’t worth the hassle. If that’s going to continue (and it may) then I would just rather buy online and direct.
The vast majority of buyers will not pay MSRP. And they do not want to pay MSRP. Manufacturers will just increase the price is there is a low supply like there is now. I believe people are shopping out of city, state or local because they do not want to pay full MSRP. Consumers always benefit with competition…more outlets to buy…better for the customers. I am pretty sure you have agreed to that in the past.
In real estate…when there is adequate supply and demand….how many people would want to truly buy online for one price…with one click……no offers…?
In real estate…when there is adequate supply and demand….how many people would want to truly buy online for one price…with one click……no offers…?
09-25-21, 04:28 PM
#125
It is a very popular topic today, written about by many clueless folks, about how the manufacturer/dealer relationship needs to end. In a brave new world the manufacturers and dealers will all forego maximizing profits and rather change to a totally consumer based program to make the purchase trouble free and a ten minute process on your I-PHONE. It is never going to happen but it has sold a number of articles and gives folks something to dream about.
The part those not in the business fail to understand is the symbiotic financial relationship between the dealers and the manufacturers. That relationship has worked for more than a 100 years and is unlikely to change anytime soon. Any useful thesis will require a thorough knowledge of this relationship or will simply be a re-hash of what amateurs have been writing now for some time.
The part those not in the business fail to understand is the symbiotic financial relationship between the dealers and the manufacturers. That relationship has worked for more than a 100 years and is unlikely to change anytime soon. Any useful thesis will require a thorough knowledge of this relationship or will simply be a re-hash of what amateurs have been writing now for some time.
09-25-21, 05:47 PM
#126
Lexus Fanatic
If Tesla and other BEV-makers can finally get their s*** together and design a self-driving system that is reasonably safe, even in unexpected road conditions, us Boomers, one of the largest generations in history, instead of just sitting in rocking-chairs in senior-homes, may still be buying and "driving" new vehicles a lot longer than you might expect. One thing, though, that will help some Millennials is that, as sons and daughters, they could be inheriting money and estates from Boomers who do pass away in the next 20 years. A lot of Boomers, for various reasons, partly because they are receiving pensions and have saved for many years, have managed to amass a lot of $$$$$ in their retirement accounts.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-25-21 at 05:54 PM.
09-25-21, 05:49 PM
#127
Lexus Fanatic
09-25-21, 07:26 PM
#128
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i'm confused... i think your thesis is about why there ought to be better ways to buy cars?
if so, the links i posted provide tons of info on how to work around and through the current awful process... i thought maybe your thesis will outline all the deficiencies.
if so, the links i posted provide tons of info on how to work around and through the current awful process... i thought maybe your thesis will outline all the deficiencies.
09-25-21, 07:44 PM
#129
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
It is a very popular topic today, written about by many clueless folks, about how the manufacturer/dealer relationship needs to end. In a brave new world the manufacturers and dealers will all forego maximizing profits and rather change to a totally consumer based program to make the purchase trouble free and a ten minute process on your I-PHONE. It is never going to happen but it has sold a number of articles and gives folks something to dream about.
The part those not in the business fail to understand is the symbiotic financial relationship between the dealers and the manufacturers. That relationship has worked for more than a 100 years and is unlikely to change anytime soon.
The part those not in the business fail to understand is the symbiotic financial relationship between the dealers and the manufacturers. That relationship has worked for more than a 100 years and is unlikely to change anytime soon.
i know people deeply involved in the auto business, people who have owned and run dealerships, people who still own and run highly successful dealerships, and people who provide strategic consulting services to auto OEMs and various tech and other service companies. change is a'comin' to be sure.
it's not all good though, dealers are rapidly getting tools to provide even more sophisticated ways to target and manipulate consumers into paying too much for cars.
given the increasing costs of autos, increasing regulations, stagnant incomes for the majority of people, more and more people are leasing. and between the payment, and insurance, the 'subscription' model will become more and more viable.
and finally, self-driving cars will come making car ownership less desirable for millions when they can just summon a car quickly to take them where they want to go.
the comments made about millennials are important too... cars are simply less interesting and relevant to millions of millennials who have many other financial priorities with tech devices, streaming services, being in the right places (clubs, gyms, bars, restaurants, etc) and huge amounts spent on grooming and attire. but guess what the cool car is for better off millennials... yup, a tesla, with no dealerships to deal with.
09-26-21, 10:04 AM
#130
Lexus Fanatic
Change is absolutely coming, it just has a lot of roadblocks. Consumer desire will win the day though.
Millennials will also make their own money and one day will be the ones with tons of money in their accounts, their savings rates are way higher than those of baby boomers. How much money someone has squirreled away doesn't matter as much as how much they are consuming, how much they are spending and boomers are just past those prime earning and spending years, while millennials are just entering them. The only modern generation that is larger than baby boomers are millennials.
Someone with tons of money in an account doesn't do anything for the economy. Someone who spends money does.
If Tesla and other BEV-makers can finally get their s*** together and design a self-driving system that is reasonably safe, even in unexpected road conditions, us Boomers, one of the largest generations in history, instead of just sitting in rocking-chairs in senior-homes, may still be buying and "driving" new vehicles a lot longer than you might expect. One thing, though, that will help some Millennials is that, as sons and daughters, they could be inheriting money and estates from Boomers who do pass away in the next 20 years. A lot of Boomers, for various reasons, partly because they are receiving pensions and have saved for many years, have managed to amass a lot of $$$$$ in their retirement accounts.
Someone with tons of money in an account doesn't do anything for the economy. Someone who spends money does.
09-26-21, 10:49 AM
#131
Lexus Fanatic
Someone with tons of money in an account doesn't do anything for the economy.
Someone who spends money does.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-26-21 at 10:56 AM.
09-26-21, 01:47 PM
#132
Driver School Candidate
it will change because that symbiotic financial relationship is at the expense of the consumer. they get shafted, over, and over, and over in the most painful financial transactions of their lives. fortunately, EVs will force change to your beloved business model as the service revenue is dramatically less.
i know people deeply involved in the auto business, people who have owned and run dealerships, people who still own and run highly successful dealerships, and people who provide strategic consulting services to auto OEMs and various tech and other service companies. change is a'comin' to be sure.
it's not all good though, dealers are rapidly getting tools to provide even more sophisticated ways to target and manipulate consumers into paying too much for cars.
given the increasing costs of autos, increasing regulations, stagnant incomes for the majority of people, more and more people are leasing. and between the payment, and insurance, the 'subscription' model will become more and more viable.
and finally, self-driving cars will come making car ownership less desirable for millions when they can just summon a car quickly to take them where they want to go.
the comments made about millennials are important too... cars are simply less interesting and relevant to millions of millennials who have many other financial priorities with tech devices, streaming services, being in the right places (clubs, gyms, bars, restaurants, etc) and huge amounts spent on grooming and attire. but guess what the cool car is for better off millennials... yup, a tesla, with no dealerships to deal with.
i know people deeply involved in the auto business, people who have owned and run dealerships, people who still own and run highly successful dealerships, and people who provide strategic consulting services to auto OEMs and various tech and other service companies. change is a'comin' to be sure.
it's not all good though, dealers are rapidly getting tools to provide even more sophisticated ways to target and manipulate consumers into paying too much for cars.
given the increasing costs of autos, increasing regulations, stagnant incomes for the majority of people, more and more people are leasing. and between the payment, and insurance, the 'subscription' model will become more and more viable.
and finally, self-driving cars will come making car ownership less desirable for millions when they can just summon a car quickly to take them where they want to go.
the comments made about millennials are important too... cars are simply less interesting and relevant to millions of millennials who have many other financial priorities with tech devices, streaming services, being in the right places (clubs, gyms, bars, restaurants, etc) and huge amounts spent on grooming and attire. but guess what the cool car is for better off millennials... yup, a tesla, with no dealerships to deal with.
When someone actually starts explaining how to change the dynamics of the manufacturer/dealer financial relationship will any of this nonsense make sense. Of course that requires folks who understand what that relationship is. All we have heard so far is the same old talk about what the millennials will want. Factually, they can buy a car TODAY and never leave their keyboard. All they need do is pay what the dealer asks and the process will be short and sweet and they will deliver to the door just like Bezos. In reality though, folks think somehow they will bypass the dealer, buy direct, and somehow save money doing it. That is the real driver of the thought and logically fails on so many fronts.
09-26-21, 01:48 PM
#133
Lexus Fanatic
On paper, yes, but, in actuality, the world doesn't work that way. Governments often overlook public opinion when they set policy. A perfect example was right here in the auto industry. Most Americans loved the cars that Detroit produced in the 1960s, despite their carburation and electrical deficiencies.....but government regs (and a lack of technology) gave us the junk, downsizing, and Mickey-Mouse engines we had to put up with in the 1970s and 80s.
There, I disagree. People with healthy bank-accounts usually have less chance of drawing money out of the economy in welfare and/or unemployment payments.
Businesses care about CONSUMERS. They care about the people who are going to be buying their products, and it is simply a fact that people consume at a much higher level when they are younger than what baby boomers are now. People in their 70s and 80s and 90s simply aren't buying new cars every 3 years or buying new homes or spending money on electronics, etc. They live different lifestyles. This is all heavily studied and its a fact. I know, because I own a business where we have paid these consultants to provide us with this data. We just had a presentation on this very subject as pertains to millennials and home buying.
Depends. In some cases, the money stays here in the U.S......by purchasing American-made goods. In many cases, though, it goes overseas......particularly to China.
09-26-21, 02:02 PM
#134
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
'internet' interactions with dealers i've had...
fill out the web form detailing (per their form's requests) what i'm looking for and answering their question on how i'd like to be interacted with (email or text for example). and this is what happens:
1) no response
2) instant phonecalls asking me to come in the dealer or basically asking me again all the questions on the form
3) an email or text with links to models in stock that are NOTHING LIKE what i inquired about
'love' other mailers i get from dealers:
1) offering a trade in price on a car i LEASED and have already returned months or YEARS ago.
2) offering a trade in price or extended warranty on a car i SOLD BACK to the dealership months or YEARS ago.
makes me think the dealers have money to waste... and waste my time, with their plain envelopes - of course the 'presorted' rate is a clue that it's junk but ya never know.
as far as "paying what the dealer asks" - that right there is why i hate dealers. for my last 2 transactions (one purchase, one lease) i was utterly lied to with 'quotes' (one saying over msrp was normal, this was last year, and another with 'numbers' that had no basis in reality, deliberately designed to be as confusing... the lease i ended up about $200 less a month than what they quoted and the purchase after the initial 'over msrp' was about $7K below MSRP. the lease i picked up the car in person and the 'paperwork' and it still took a couple of hours for the f&i and other b.s. the purchase i had delivered to me from out of state, and thankfully i never had to set foot in the dealership.
in the 10 or so cars i've bought/leased i can only remember one transaction that was pleasant.
and you wonder why people hate dealers?
In reality though, folks think somehow they will bypass the dealer, buy direct, and somehow save money doing it. That is the real driver of the thought and logically fails on so many fronts.
if i buy a tesla, it's on the website, click a few buttons, done. very appealing!
09-26-21, 02:58 PM
#135
Driver School Candidate
most dealers do NOT make this simple.
'internet' interactions with dealers i've had...
fill out the web form detailing (per their form's requests) what i'm looking for and answering their question on how i'd like to be interacted with (email or text for example). and this is what happens:
1) no response
2) instant phonecalls asking me to come in the dealer or basically asking me again all the questions on the form
3) an email or text with links to models in stock that are NOTHING LIKE what i inquired about
'love' other mailers i get from dealers:
1) offering a trade in price on a car i LEASED and have already returned months or YEARS ago.
2) offering a trade in price or extended warranty on a car i SOLD BACK to the dealership months or YEARS ago.
makes me think the dealers have money to waste... and waste my time, with their plain envelopes - of course the 'presorted' rate is a clue that it's junk but ya never know.
as far as "paying what the dealer asks" - that right there is why i hate dealers. for my last 2 transactions (one purchase, one lease) i was utterly lied to with 'quotes' (one saying over msrp was normal, this was last year, and another with 'numbers' that had no basis in reality, deliberately designed to be as confusing... the lease i ended up about $200 less a month than what they quoted and the purchase after the initial 'over msrp' was about $7K below MSRP. the lease i picked up the car in person and the 'paperwork' and it still took a couple of hours for the f&i and other b.s. the purchase i had delivered to me from out of state, and thankfully i never had to set foot in the dealership.
in the 10 or so cars i've bought/leased i can only remember one transaction that was pleasant.
and you wonder why people hate dealers?
and i think that's what guys like you who've been 'in the business' don't get... it's not entirely about money, it's about being lied to, manipulated, and wasting the customers' time. i would GLADLY pay a reasonable price more than i would ideally like to pay to not have to deal with all that.
if i buy a tesla, it's on the website, click a few buttons, done. very appealing!
'internet' interactions with dealers i've had...
fill out the web form detailing (per their form's requests) what i'm looking for and answering their question on how i'd like to be interacted with (email or text for example). and this is what happens:
1) no response
2) instant phonecalls asking me to come in the dealer or basically asking me again all the questions on the form
3) an email or text with links to models in stock that are NOTHING LIKE what i inquired about
'love' other mailers i get from dealers:
1) offering a trade in price on a car i LEASED and have already returned months or YEARS ago.
2) offering a trade in price or extended warranty on a car i SOLD BACK to the dealership months or YEARS ago.
makes me think the dealers have money to waste... and waste my time, with their plain envelopes - of course the 'presorted' rate is a clue that it's junk but ya never know.
as far as "paying what the dealer asks" - that right there is why i hate dealers. for my last 2 transactions (one purchase, one lease) i was utterly lied to with 'quotes' (one saying over msrp was normal, this was last year, and another with 'numbers' that had no basis in reality, deliberately designed to be as confusing... the lease i ended up about $200 less a month than what they quoted and the purchase after the initial 'over msrp' was about $7K below MSRP. the lease i picked up the car in person and the 'paperwork' and it still took a couple of hours for the f&i and other b.s. the purchase i had delivered to me from out of state, and thankfully i never had to set foot in the dealership.
in the 10 or so cars i've bought/leased i can only remember one transaction that was pleasant.
and you wonder why people hate dealers?
and i think that's what guys like you who've been 'in the business' don't get... it's not entirely about money, it's about being lied to, manipulated, and wasting the customers' time. i would GLADLY pay a reasonable price more than i would ideally like to pay to not have to deal with all that.
if i buy a tesla, it's on the website, click a few buttons, done. very appealing!
According to you "people hate dealers". Yes, some folks with a basic thought process they are always getting screwed certainly do. But, here is a news flash, not everyone agrees. Ninety-percent of customers surveyed are satisfied with their latest sales experience. I will though agree that I met a number of folks with your attitude over the decades. Some of them we sold and some of the deals we didn't make were our best deals. I can though assure you my people had fun messing with them when we figured out they knew everything!