bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

all sorts of enthusiasts, including s-class drivers.

SW17LS

Its just not a car for enthusiasts, there's nothing special or remarkable about it. Put that powertrain into the GA-L platform and we'll talk. Same as the MDX Type S, you're not attracting people who understand and value what makes an X5 different from an MDX. What we want is for Lexus to compete directly with companies that make bonafide premium products on premium platforms...not to gussie up transverse mac strut steel platforms used in Toyotas to try and sort of make them kinda similar.

S Class is absolutely a premium car built on a premium platform where performance is at the center of every design decision made...THATS what makes a car an enthusiast car.

1111GS

No kidding. The ones I know pair them with other high end cars/SUVs. I don't think they even know what a GX is. Interesting enough the ones around me all are driven by wives. It sure is a financial statement or fashion/jewelry as someone said.

SW17LS

Will people who like the G Wagen but can't afford one be interested in a new GX though? I think they might.

gor134

The GX is going to be a G-Class/Bronco/Defender style car. Doesn't mean it's going to be cross-shopped by lower end or higher end market. All it means is it's designed to appeal to the overlanding/offroad-lifestyle community in it's own specific price bracket. There will probably be a whole array of offroad accessories to be offered similar to those models as well, as dealer installed options, maybe by the 2nd model year.

Rommelromm

Dunno, my wife has a Disco 5, and likes the Bronco, G wagon, Defender, and if the GX550 goes rugged it will be on the list too. She kinda liked the GX460 last time shopping but found it a little too dated even then.

patgilm

My wife likes a rugged looking SUV as well and we had a 1st and 2nd gen GX but we really wanted a LR4 but didn’t pull the trigger because the Disco 5 was coming out and when it did we didn’t like it and we then couldn’t order a new LR4. She also really likes the looks of the G wagon. With that being said we now have a luxury SUV in the X7 and I’m not sure if she will want to go back to the rugged truck ride/look anymore. Who knows, if the new GX looks good maybe it will sway her back.

AJT123

New GX will sell like hotcakes just like the old one.

Carmaker1

I have definitely been taken out of context here, even after being directly quoted by you and mentioning this a number of times over the past 18 months(1),(2),(3) (save for some outdated bad insight on hybrid powertrains). Keywords are "in terms of image" and if MB still offered a 6-cylinder G-Class. I also mentioned "G-Class like".



The G550 is significantly much more expensive than the range topping 2024 GX 550 (maybe I4 GX 550h as well), which will reach about $90k decked out. Even so, not outlandish for them to be seen as competitors. The LS 400 was $35k, while the 1990 420SEL was much much more at $62,000. They were still competitors and even so with the more lofty 1990 560SEL at $73k.



The direct competitor to the GX is mentioned to be the Defender 5-door range, as I've said before. When the Discovery 5 went unibody and Defender did similar, Lexus opted to follow the path of the more niche Defender and use some old school Land Cruiser heritage to get there. I've never changed course on that, almost 2 years later.



Well, in order to get the right context and not rely on someone else's misinterpretation of information, it would be important for you to read some of what I actually stated, so you are not led to question the claim at all. I never said they were going to be direct competitors and that the GX would be directly priced against the G-Class, like the person you replied to incorrectly interpreted from me. That's LX territory. They took me out of context. because I never said they would "stray from the midlevel GX formula".

I stated Lexus is targeting the G-Class in terms of image and the Defender more directly on price and positioning. Previously, the Discovery was their target from 2002 to 2017.


Benchmark during J120 GX Development in Late 1990s, Discovery 2 (L318) launched 1998.

2003 MY updated Discovery 2 (L318 II), launched in 2002 parallel to J120 GX 470.

Original GX 470 (Prototype Vehicle); Photographed Autumn 2001 for Jan '02 Press Release


J150 GX 460 Benchmark during 2005-09; LR3 (L319) launched in Autumn 2004.


2010MY LR4 (L319), moderately updated GX competitor from LR launched in 2009

2010 GX 460 (J150); Photographed September 2009

What I didn't realize, is Lexus targeted the GX primarily towards the LR3/LR4/Discovery and not so much the unibody competition. They had the RX for that, even if there was no V8 offered in that ES-based (later Highlander based) vehicle. The Discovery went unibody during my time at LR, at the end of my tenure back in 2016 (launched Feb 2017), following a 12 1/2 YEAR RUN from Summer 2004 to 2016. Many people whine about the GX being 13 years old (14 in Dec), but its direct competition laid the template for longest lifecycle LOL.


L462 Land Rover Discovery, BARELY introduced almost 13 years after predecessor.

When this new J180 entered development half a decade ago, Lexus eventually set their eyes on the Defender 110 and 130, likely around 2018-19, once they cleared whiteboard phases and determined which direction to go in.

Thank you, because I have stated this many times over the past 18 months and it should be pretty clear what I have stated specifically regarding the GX. Directly positioned against the Defender 110, but designed in the vein of the G-Class in terms of image. According to internal sources, it looks like a G-Class type vehicle in Lexus skin and bits of originality from past Land Cruiser models, such as the J76 Prado, which was sold from 1990-96 and still continues on in today's 70-Series 5-door wagon (just with no 3rd row). In fact, I posted that image a few pages ago in this very thread.

I have provided many images and detailed comments to express (to the best of my knowledge), what's coming. Being taken out of context like that, feels more like someone is doing their best to not to understand what I saying and just keep repeating myself...

Exactly the point I have been making since 2021, back when GX 550 was trademarked and I learned about the main trajectory of the model program. I pointed out how TX would take up the role of the family 3-row Lexus below LX and above RX, allowing the GX to go more niche as Lexus's niche offroad focused vehicle. The LX is supposed to be the most luxurious, flagship expression of both offroad and ultraluxury going forward, better corrected when its own MMC arrives in about 2 years (Q4 2024/early 2025).

I would've hoped this would've been well understood by now, as that was my goal. I have been as descriptive as possible about this vehicle, but often it falls on deaf ears.

Yes, definitely the idea here. Possibly get Xennial (late 70s/early 80s), Millennial (1984-1994), and older Gen Z buyers (1995-1999) to seek a more affordable G-Class, but at Defender 110 P400 SE Inline 6 pricing of $69k and maybe the size of the Defender 130 P400 SE I6 instead, which costs $78,000.





The 2024 GX 550 is for those who are fine with FI 6 cylinder power with G-Class like styling and don't need a turbo V8 to be happy, plus want to keep the price below $100k (excl TT&L). Since LX starts at $90k, this might just work. Right now there is a gap between the current GX and LX that hasn't been filled. The new model will jump in price to cover that, as well as TX overlap with the old positions held by RX450hL and GX. The range topping TX 550h+ will start in the $70s and reach $80+ loaded, while GX will be a smidge higher at almost $90k.

Definitely right gor. This has been in progress since 2017, when development of this vehicle began and Lexus also began developing the TNGA-K based TX in parallel. I learned about the hardcore Land Cruiser in late 2019, but knew 3rd generation GX had some new direction coming by 2023, as we entered into 2020. That became very clear in 2021.

The GX couldn't be justified again as a business case, with the current formula or it might just be at risk of cannibalization from the people carrier focused TX. It needed to be heavily differentiated from the 4-cylinder only TX somehow, which is not going to be a flagship vehicle, but will be a bit more luxurious than the RX. It is only going to be a pricier replacement for RX-L and still a more affordable alternative below LX, with good quality to match. The LX will remain the Lexus SUV flagship for the time being, as will LS for sedans through 2025, and LC as well. Halo vehicles not included (ie like LFA). ES of course is not relevant to this discussion, but yeah it arrives Fall of 2024, shortly before the updated LX and you've already seen it.

(Side note: Please ignore any hardcore Lexus fanatics, who are trying to sell the TX as some ultraluxury mobile. It isn't. Maybe marginally better than an MDX and QX60, but it is not that spectacular according to my inside source who is privy to several Toyota and Lexus model programs, the past several years. He loves his Tundra 1794 and he first saw the TX about 9 months ago and has been readying it for launch since then, plus other Toyota/Lexus models.)

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Carmaker1, sorry you felt i took you out of context. your posts are so long that i guess i can't process the salient points, but thanks for working to keep us updated.

Toys4RJill

meh. No V8. Sales will struggle

AJT123

I never said you said anything, just that I don't think GX will stray much from what it is. Lexus can't keep them on lots as it is and it's a 13 year old platform. If it ain't broke....

gor134

Given the GX is going more lifestyle/off-road oriented due to the TX taking the family-hauling 3-row role.. it's safe to assume the same is happening with 4Runner vs Grand Highlander... going even more off-road focused. Where does this leave room for a "lifestyle, offroad-oriented" Land Cruiser designed for the US, as some rumours I've read before that you've also posted about? Is there a possibility this US-oriented model has been confused with the next-gen 4Runner?

Toys4RJill

Yeah. No kidding. very popular.

Carmaker1

I just want everyone to be on the same page and keep up enthusiasm. The opposite of that is pessimism, which often you see with the future of Toyota and Lexus 4x4s.

GX will shock people, as will the 2029 BEV version. I do hope the 2025 LX gets decent fixes to stay above that.
You implied that I claimed it stray from it's current path and that came across as extreme price increase to the level of G-Class.

The GX is going to be different. It isn't going to be BOF MPV like today's model.

I would forget about that term "if it ain't broke" because all the people who keep saying that to me are speculating and very much unaware of what's coming.

Toyota designed the current to compete with the LR3 (Disco 3) and that vehicle is long since dead, a good 6 years now when it was called LR4/Disco 4.

They have a new target and gap to fill, between the TX and LX in price.

UX and NX are categorized as "entry level luxury". RX and TX are mid-level, whereas GX splits the difference between mid-level and upper luxury. LX is ultra luxury.

Everything I've said is correct, directly confirmed over the last month from people at Toyota once again in private, who proudly thank me and state everyone should be excited with what's coming out soon.

I can't give out their names of course, but I know of their positions at Toyota like my other contacts and respect their confidence.

I'm on way out of United States right now for Ford business, so I'm probably going to be logged off for weeks.​​​​​​

All four vehicles are coming to market according to one insider (in Tacoma, LC180, GX, 4Runner) who works on a pretty important level at Toyota in Plano. I am still shocked that I'm not under threat, compared to him commending me for what I'm doing.

4Runner is evolutionary, Land Cruiser and GX are different from its past mission. I think what keeps throwing people off, is the crappy renderings from Japanese magazines based on the J150, who are not being told about the actual vehicle I imagine, to know reliably what they're drawing up.

It has become clear at this point what is coming to market is the Land Cruiser Prado and 4Runner will still slot below it.

I'm watching with popcorn to see how this all works, because now that you don't have Land Cruiser 300 and LX 310-Series fighting each other for sales, now you'll have 4Runner, Land Cruiser, and GX instead!

Just like the Venza, RAV4, and NX. Oh What a Feeling...of hardly any lot space (at Toyota dealers).

Perhaps Lexus needs to become 100% no haggle on the GX, telling folks to get a Land Cruiser if they won't pay the price of entry.