chip shortage
09-30-21, 07:50 PM
#62
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
https://fortune.com/2021/09/17/chip-...tor-stone-age/
Not sure if this was posted previously, but as someone in tech, pretty astounding to see automakers live on old process node chips....
Not sure if this was posted previously, but as someone in tech, pretty astounding to see automakers live on old process node chips....
It is explained right there in the article - "Most systems in cars are safety-critical and need to perform in practically every situation regardless of temperature, humidity, vibrations, and even minor road debris. With so much at stake, tried and true is better than new and improved. "
Engine management computers do not need a lot of processing power. They can operate on older, slower CPUs that do not need active cooling, and can reliably operate when its cold, hot, humid and dusty.
Engine management computers do not need a lot of processing power. They can operate on older, slower CPUs that do not need active cooling, and can reliably operate when its cold, hot, humid and dusty.
there are TONS of chips in a car. for a lot of functions, like Och mentioned, doesn't require a lot of processing power. Manufacturers care more about being proven and reliable (and most importantly cost). Staying with old chips make a lot of sense.
But still, for the main brains of modern cars, those units are on much more recent technology and they are improving a lot from generations to generations. with so many sensors / cameras plus all the infotainment information / screen displays, old processors can't handle
But still, for the main brains of modern cars, those units are on much more recent technology and they are improving a lot from generations to generations. with so many sensors / cameras plus all the infotainment information / screen displays, old processors can't handle
the NASA space program has stayed with tried and true for decade. the space shuttle used ARCHAIC technology, but hey, it was tried and true, right?
here's the space shuttle and spacex dragon cockpits.
if smart people hadn't realized it was time for NASA to keep the dinosaurs on the ground and let more nimble companies have a go, we'd still be using that ancient tech.
meanwhile, boeing is proof that archaic is still around since they can't get their space program going. they seem to be getting further and further behind spacex. and i bet spacex isn't using old chips.
09-30-21, 08:54 PM
#63
Pole Position
It is explained right there in the article - "Most systems in cars are safety-critical and need to perform in practically every situation regardless of temperature, humidity, vibrations, and even minor road debris. With so much at stake, tried and true is better than new and improved. "
Engine management computers do not need a lot of processing power. They can operate on older, slower CPUs that do not need active cooling, and can reliably operate when its cold, hot, humid and dusty.
Engine management computers do not need a lot of processing power. They can operate on older, slower CPUs that do not need active cooling, and can reliably operate when its cold, hot, humid and dusty.
09-30-21, 09:06 PM
#64
^ Yes, as long as they are not clocked to the limit. Again, there are a lot of chips in a car, and to my understanding the shortage isn't only affecting the "archaic" chips, there are cars being shipped without infotainment systems, and most infotainment systems are basically android tablets using modern chips.
09-30-21, 09:08 PM
#65
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by ST430
You do realize that newer uP are typically more powerful, consume less power, run cooler, cost less, and can be ordered in mil spec grade readily? This stuff isn't because of safety, it's because they chose to stay with the old stuff for cost savings, but it backfired big time. More modern cars like Tesla, was able to react better to the situation, similar to those in the tech industry.
09-30-21, 09:10 PM
#66
to refute the defense of staying with old chips, i present: NASA vs. SpaceX.
the NASA space program has stayed with tried and true for decade. the space shuttle used ARCHAIC technology, but hey, it was tried and true, right?
here's the space shuttle and spacex dragon cockpits.
if smart people hadn't realized it was time for NASA to keep the dinosaurs on the ground and let more nimble companies have a go, we'd still be using that ancient tech.
meanwhile, boeing is proof that archaic is still around since they can't get their space program going. they seem to be getting further and further behind spacex. and i bet spacex isn't using old chips.
the NASA space program has stayed with tried and true for decade. the space shuttle used ARCHAIC technology, but hey, it was tried and true, right?
here's the space shuttle and spacex dragon cockpits.
if smart people hadn't realized it was time for NASA to keep the dinosaurs on the ground and let more nimble companies have a go, we'd still be using that ancient tech.
meanwhile, boeing is proof that archaic is still around since they can't get their space program going. they seem to be getting further and further behind spacex. and i bet spacex isn't using old chips.
09-30-21, 09:34 PM
#67
Pole Position
^ Yes, as long as they are not clocked to the limit. Again, there are a lot of chips in a car, and to my understanding the shortage isn't only affecting the "archaic" chips, there are cars being shipped without infotainment systems, and most infotainment systems are basically android tablets using modern chips.
Last edited by ST430; 09-30-21 at 09:40 PM.
09-30-21, 09:40 PM
#68
Pole Position
In the tech industry, we do face some of the same shortages, but we procure well in advance with risk buys to ensure our supply, even if they are scarce brand new never seen before component component. During development, we further specific second source components or if there are no drop in replacents, design in dual footprints to ensure we don't get stuck empty handed. Of course, this adds more time and costs, but it buffers us from most of the issues since tariffs and covid hit...
Last edited by ST430; 09-30-21 at 10:10 PM.
09-30-21, 10:01 PM
#69
"Clocked to the limit"? No one overclocks standard parts in the industry, especially in mil spec grade. If anything they are even further derated for even more margins. Stop thinking about "chips" in terms of your homemade computer or GPU card. There's a reason most tech companies have a while department of supply chain specialist and component engineers....
09-30-21, 10:09 PM
#70
Pole Position
Ur still thinking in terms of consumer mass market chips. The uP that most mfg use would be an integrated SOC solution that would require minimum cooling. Furthermore, they would go to the latest and greatest process node as it would reach price parity in terms of tpc yet. It would probably be an low voltage part from maybe last or 2 generations ago if thinking x86, or a modern arm soc that integrates most glue logic on die itself. This leads to cost and power savings in packaging itself. This where most of the industry has moved to for specialized applications.
09-30-21, 10:12 PM
#71
Pole Position
Note: this is most speculative as I don't exactly what part they have short. If I knew, I could quickly tell you a comparable component or lead times on them. The only reason I mentioned Tesla is that they have pretty sharp folks working on this. I know because I tried to hire one for our group, but she eventually opted to go to Tesla and work on next generation pcbas for them instead.
10-01-21, 07:18 AM
#72
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
great discussion folks. 
the nimble car makers are going to solve this faster than the slow ones. if you're a car maker relying on ancient tech chips, will you feel 'good' when supply resumes? i wouldn't, because you know some of your competitors at least have found alternatives, giving them an advantage.
those thinking old tech is better because of a car's 'harsh' conditions... modern chips often run much cooler, obviously take up much less space, and do more than old ones. think of cell phones and the abuse they take... they have to run the latest tech to achieve best battery life and smallest/lightest phones. i know phones aren't cars of course and sure they break, because they aren't be in a tightly sealed and perhaps insulated box like an ecu or other car controller.
the car industry has basically become a mobile tech industry, as elon musk said not too long ago. good luck keeping up. stay with the old at your peril.
the nimble car makers are going to solve this faster than the slow ones. if you're a car maker relying on ancient tech chips, will you feel 'good' when supply resumes? i wouldn't, because you know some of your competitors at least have found alternatives, giving them an advantage.
those thinking old tech is better because of a car's 'harsh' conditions... modern chips often run much cooler, obviously take up much less space, and do more than old ones. think of cell phones and the abuse they take... they have to run the latest tech to achieve best battery life and smallest/lightest phones. i know phones aren't cars of course and sure they break, because they aren't be in a tightly sealed and perhaps insulated box like an ecu or other car controller.
the car industry has basically become a mobile tech industry, as elon musk said not too long ago. good luck keeping up. stay with the old at your peril.
10-01-21, 08:27 AM
#73
There are many modules in a car, some of which are no more complicated than a control board in a dishwasher. I'm sure these use very primitive chips, perhaps old 8 bit designs, and I don't know if these are in short supply or not.
The most modern chip in any car is the one in the infotainment system, and these are outsourced anyways. Clearly these are in short supply, because in some markets manufacturer's are selling cars with blank off plates where the infotainment screen would normally go.
The main PCMs are mostly SOC designs to the best of my knowledge, there is even one major supplier that designs and sells these modules to many automakers. I don't agree with minimal cooling requirement to be a good idea to be required for the main ECU controlling the critical engine, transmission and safety systems. A heatsink will collect dust, a fan can seize. These chips must be designed to be able to operate in very high temperatures without any kind of cooling. Clearly the older designs are handling the task just fine, so redesigning them just for the sake of die shrink isn't necessary, unless there are substantial savings and less chance of supply disruption.
The most modern chip in any car is the one in the infotainment system, and these are outsourced anyways. Clearly these are in short supply, because in some markets manufacturer's are selling cars with blank off plates where the infotainment screen would normally go.
The main PCMs are mostly SOC designs to the best of my knowledge, there is even one major supplier that designs and sells these modules to many automakers. I don't agree with minimal cooling requirement to be a good idea to be required for the main ECU controlling the critical engine, transmission and safety systems. A heatsink will collect dust, a fan can seize. These chips must be designed to be able to operate in very high temperatures without any kind of cooling. Clearly the older designs are handling the task just fine, so redesigning them just for the sake of die shrink isn't necessary, unless there are substantial savings and less chance of supply disruption.
10-01-21, 09:10 AM
#75
Lexus Champion
For the more simplistic controllers the die size doesn't matter the packaging is still the same, for example
If that is 45nm or 5nm the package will be the same. There is no need to use a bleeding edge process for most of the chips in a car. The infotainment yes, mundane stuff not at all in fact it would make the situation worse wafers would be wasted making mundane chips that can be fabbed on a much more ancient process and still work basically the same. Sure it might draw 4x the power but it's power draw is low to begin with.
If that is 45nm or 5nm the package will be the same. There is no need to use a bleeding edge process for most of the chips in a car. The infotainment yes, mundane stuff not at all in fact it would make the situation worse wafers would be wasted making mundane chips that can be fabbed on a much more ancient process and still work basically the same. Sure it might draw 4x the power but it's power draw is low to begin with.