Motorola

The current crop of Genesis vehicles have received nothing but rave reviews even over their German counterparts for their build quality, and especially interior quality. Again, why would the G90 be any different? Once again it just sounds like you're abiding by stereotypes. It's not particularly hard to go "beyond Lexus" when a Genesis G80 alone has more aluminum underneath it than an LS500.

A loaded 2020 Audi A8 tops at $112K. Still cheaper than a loaded LS500.

https://www.autobytel.com/audi/a8/2020/configurator/

Starting price doesn't mean anything because they don't have comparable features. The prior G90 was never comparable to the LS500 because it was missing so many of its features even though its starting price was within an earshot of the LS.

SW17LS

And that may be, but I doubt it. We'll see.

I'm not abiding by stereotypes at all, I just know a lot about this particular segment of cars. Lexus has never been able to make a car that really matched the sophistication of the German platforms. I doubt Genesis can either.

I shopped for 2020 A8s lol. The LS500 optioned to $118k has all kind of silly options like the $10,000 kriko glass trim and such that nobody buys, and aren't comparable to the Audi. An LS500 loaded the way anybody would load it, certainly to what you would ever find on a Lexus dealers lot is about $100k, so the 2020 A8 was $12k more. Since you really can't order a Lexus, what dealers ordered is what you had to chose from.

You aren't going to win this argument with me because I know the numbers on these cars like the back of my hand. You are not correct, the LS500 is considerably cheaper than the German cars, especially the S Class.

Of course it does, and in fact the LS500 has more standard features than the German cars, which makes the value proposition even more for the LS.

And yes, the outgoing G90 was totally comparable to the LS500. All it was missing was an air suspension option, and it rode better than the air equipped LS500 anyways.

Motorola

I would agree with the LS500 but hard disagree with the rest of the LS lineup. The LS400 up to 430 were absolute masterclasses in platform design and engineering. The 460 was great for its time as well. The LS500 was the hard reset that threw all of that away in favor of some weird Panamera midlife crisis.

If you're talking about the AMG or M versions, then I can sort of see it, but Lexus has never competed in that space with the LS and the Germans heavily modify those platforms for those performance variants.

You don't need the Kiriko glass to go past the A8 in price, merely replacing it with the Executive package still puts the LS500 over $112K.

A loaded G90 with the full rear seat options could be had for $80K. $80K got you into a base LS500 with AWD. Again, I don't see them as comparable at all.

EDIT: Just realized my typo in the last post led to some confusion, I meant "earshot of the G90."

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

pedigree, heritage, and cachet... LOL... if you google pedigree you'll get dog food.
oxford dictionary has one definition of heritage as:

ARCHAIC
a special or individual possession; an allotted portion.

note the qualifier "ARCHAIC" LOL

let's throw a few more marketing words in there... 'marque', traditional, established, etc.

about buyers buying based on how they'll be seen by others, that may be true for some shallow buyers, but it's not universally true.

since you haven't experienced a new g90, this is all just guesses on your part.
but as you know, i drove the last gen g90 for 3 years, and i also went in my neighbor's s-class at times, and i felt ZERO difference in 'sophistication', 'specialness', and didn't find the s-class any more refined, any more 'solid' (whatever that means), even though my g90 didn't have an air suspension. there was ZERO creaks/squeaks in my g90, and the interior was rock solid (you couldn't move or flex pieces anywhere).

what specifically do you mean by this? to me it just sounds like a perception based on paying more for it.

reminds me of the pranks i saw years ago where they served canned and other cheap food prepared and described in a fancy way in a fancy restaurant and served $2 wine, etc., and the guests ooh'ed and aah'ed over it, until they the prank was revealed.

Motorola

If heritage meant anything the Jaguar XJ wouldn't have been axed and the Maserati Quattroporte would have been in this conversation lol. Both of those vehicles had more "heritage" than the Audi A8 and BMW 7 Series combined. See how they ended up...

At the end of the day, badge can't replace a good product. Unless you're the A8, which is a great car but so boring looking that apparently few cared enough to buy it.

SW17LS

I had the LS400 and the LS430, they were great cars but always lagged behind the germans in chassis sophistication, most felt on the highway at high speeds and in the ability of the car to both ride really well, and also handle very well.

Have you driven all of these cars?

You will never find those LS500s on the lot. Again,. trust me. I have spent hours and hours looking at LS inventory around the country.

Just because its much cheaper doesnt mean it isn't comparable. Have you driven an LS460L, a G90 or an LS500? The G90 was obviously reverse engineered from an LS460. They ride and drive almost identically. The outgoing G90 was every bit comparable to the LS.

Which I have acknolwedged several times.

Riding in a car as a passenger doesn't tell you 1/2 the story. The S Class is considerably more sophisticated than the G90...drive both down the highway at 90 MPH and then drive both through a twisty back country road, the ways in which the S Class' chassis and engineering is superior are numerous. Same is true with the LS...like I said, the G90 was obviously reverse engineered from an LS460L, it was obvious that is what they benchmarked the car against.

The S Class has a ride and drive dynamic that really is unnmatched in the segment. Nothing has the capability to ride so well, yet also be so agile. The LS460 rode almost as well, but the handling wasn't there at all and high speed stability and solidity were nowhere near comparable. The 7 Series just isn't as overall well executed, and at times the ride feels great, but then it feels harsh, and at times it seems to handle great but then it feels like a barge. The A8 is surprisingly excellent, but still not quite there. The LS500 just doesn't have a good ride/handling balance at all and just is a train wreck from a suspension perspective.

The difference in high speed confidence in my S560 vs my LS460L or LS460 is really amazing, and like I said the outgoing G90 is very similar in suspension performance to the LS460L. Remember too, the W223 is better than my W222 also. The S Class is a considerably better car than your G90 was, whether that came across to you or not as a passenger a couple times doesn't mean anything. But...it cost a LOT more, so its all a tradeoff.

Your G90 also was much more solid inside than an LS500.

So, I have my doubts that Genesis really will equal the S Class with this car, or even the other German cars. The LS? Sure.

Its hard to put it into words, but I think I have proven that I'm a pretty objective guy. When you manipulate the interior of the German cars and compare that to the LS, the German cars just feel a lot more solid. Consoles don't move, materials don't flex, etc. I could move the console of my LS460 side to side with my knee. And of the Germans, Mercedes is the bottom of the pile in this area. The interiors of the 7 and the A8 are really incredibly solid and well constructed. The S Class is better than the Lexus but not as good as they are. I would say the G90 was as good as the S Class in that regard.

The S Class doesn't have the reputation of being the best car in the world for nothing. When you drive them all back to back (which I have done many times), the S Class in unquestionably the best car. It rides better than the best riding car yet handles better than the best handling car. How much is it worth though to have the "best" car, vs a car that is merely "excellent"? Thats the question. Is it worth $35,000 more? I don't know that it is, having one myself. I also truly do not know that I will get another one.

Hence when people say the G90 shouldn't be compared to the Germans, I don't agree...even though its much cheaper.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i certainly agree the s-class is an EXCELLENT car, as for why it handles and rides well at 80-90 in the u.s. that's pretty obvious since it's designed to handle and ride well at 150mph on the autobahn, just like the a8, the 7 series, and all german designed cars. i drove a c-class at near that speed once on the autobahn. a bit nerve-wracking but the car did great.

clearly with a century of engineering behind it, the s-class is amazing, and yes, other 'upstart' brands like lexus and now genesis may threaten or beat in some ways but can't easily catch up or beat entirely. but it depends on the scenario and use... in the u.s. the speeds driven (unless you're striker223 ) are so low that a lot of s-class engineering is wasted.

we don't know what this new g90 will bring overall, but with the speed genesis has been progressing i wouldn't be surprised if it's very impressive, and yes, with the bonus of being 20-30k or more less than an s-class.

then we get back to the dealer experience and other factors. the dealer experience to me doesn't matter much because of their concierge service, meaning just like tesla, they come to you, and even leave a loaner. so nice.

anyway, competition is good... bring it on.

SW17LS

I thought that until I had one. Even at highway speeds in the 70s to 80, I really rarely drive over 80, the car is really superior and you can really feel that. The LS felt like it was at the point where it could potentially get away from you a little bit at speeds north of 80-85, the ride would get floaty and disconnected and when you would enter a turn you would get that unsteady lean, and you get none of that in the S Class. It really feels like its on rails, no corner or offramp feels like you got into it a little hot, which you would feel in the LS.

Theres a section on 64 near Clifton Forge VA where the speed limit is 70, I leave cruise set to 80. Theres a curvy section where the road makes some S curves and the recommended speed is 65. In the LS I would always come off the cruise control because those curves at 80 really felt like they were right at the limit with the car, and it was uncomfortable. In the S Class there is no reason to come off the cruise, and they just feel like gentle curves.

Then there is foul weather. The S Class feels so much more planted and you feel more feedback in heavy rain etc to where you feel like you really can just drive the same speeds you would drive on dry pavement. In the LS you would feel like you really didnt know what the wheels were doing under the car and that made you uncomfortable, and you felt the need to slow down.

The issue is its about engineering, like you said many many decades of engineering have gone into the suspension setup of the S Class, and its designed for WAY more than I ask of it, while the LS was designed for a little less than what I asked of it. Thats why I doubt Genesis is really going to get all the way there.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

all speculation but certainly reasonable to think the new g90 is no threat to the s-class.

i expect the new g90 to also sell in TINY #s in the u.s., no matter how well it drives.

another thing about the s-class, is while most drive a 'regular' s-class, the platform is also capable of being used in the amg models (with suspension changes) which requires even more capabilities. lexus/genesis have NOTHING like those models.

that's why with lexus for example, it's so disappointing they didn't do more with the 'F' line, not because there's a huge market for it, but by making the platform more capable, it's better for all versions.

SW17LS

I would love it to be a threat to the S Class, because I would buy one!

Motorola

You may feel that way, but that's certainly not what the big publications were saying at the time. Here's Car and Driver, who placed the LS430 at the top in its comparison test against all the Germans and the Jaguar XJ:Like I said, the LS500 is the exception to the norm, and the norm for the LS was nothing short of excellence in every aspect.

Oh, I agree the outgoing G90 is absolutely comparable to the LS500 as a vehicle and surpasses it in many ways. But there is no comparison price-wise, the LS500 is in another league.

The problem here is that I've seen this exact same argument thrown around for years on German car forums claiming the Japanese or Koreans can't match the "decades of chassis sophistication of the Germans" when this hasn't been true for decades. The Japanese absolutely leapfrogged the Germans "decades of engineering" a couple decades ago. The Infiniti G35 crushed the 3 Series. The GS350 in its 4th gen blew away the 5,E, and A6. The current Genesis products are also able to keep up with their German brethren and the guy in charge himself came from BMW lol. It's mainly in the high-performance models like AMG and M where the German superiority rings true, but that's because the Asian brands have never really bothered to put their feet into that territory to challenge the Germans.

You also can't really lump all S-Classes (and other German cars in general) into a single category because how well it handles and rides depends on whether you pay more for the air suspension, upgrade further to the E-Active body control, pay yet even more for the higher degree rear wheel steering, or go further than that into the AMG territory with active anti-rollbars, limited slip differentials, and more. There is no magic to this, it's all just a matter of money, and German car buyers are willing to pay more and more for a higher degree of performance.

SW17LS

I've had 4 LSs, an LS400 and LS430 and two LS460s. How many have you had?

I'll trust my own ownership experiences thanks. Excellent cars, not the equal to the Germans in many ways when it comes to handling and high speed stability. Doesn't mean one wouldn't smartly choose to buy one or that they shouldn't top a comparison test.

I put hundreds of thousands of miles on them. I know. I would buy another LS in a second if they offered a car like they used to, even if it lacked the handling sophistication of the German cars.

And the Germans are in another league, especially the S Class, doesn't mean they aren't compared and comparable.

It is true. Until you have owned both of them like I have you have no ammunition to tell me that I am wrong.

I owned that car too. Thats not true. The 4GS may have had better handling, but it didn't have the space or ride sophistication of the Germans.

THATS where the engineering comes in, the ability to engineer a suspension that can have that duality. The Japanese can create a great handling suspension, or a great riding suspension, but they have not mastered that duality in the same way the Germans have.

My S Class has the base airmatic suspension. The more expensive suspensions are better. To be clear, the base air suspension on the S Class is superior to the best suspension you can buy on the LS, and it likely will be on the G90 also.

Base to base, the Germans are way ahead.

I do love being told how cars I own and have owned compare to other cars I have also owned.

Motorola

Did you also own the A8, 7 Series, XJ, and S-Class of that time?

I never said they weren't... except for price, which you agree with.

Did you also own the A6, E-Class, and 5 Series of that generation to come to this conclusion?

There are dozens of reviews by motoring journalist outlets and YouTubers who drive these cars as a job that would disagree with you.

Hard disagree there, from *my* experience the German cars always ere on the stiffer side of ride. This sentiment is echoed by most others as well. There's a tradeoff for everything.

Considering the steel spring G90 rides better than the air suspension LS, I doubt an air suspension G90 will ride like the LS500 lol. You can't simply substitute the LS500 with the G90. So again, I don't see the basis for your belief other than personal bias towards the Germans.

This is quite the over-generalization...

Motorola

It requires a lot more than "suspension changes" for an AMG model. Bigger brakes, anti-rollbars, limited slip differentials, subframe replacement and much more electronic controls to keep the power in check. Even if they're on the same platform, there's an enormous difference in the amount of engineering that goes between an E450 and an E63 AMG. The starkest difference would be the MLB platform used in VW Group's models, I guarantee the Lambo Urus version of that platform will have little in common with a Volkswagen Touareg.

Also, Toyota and Hyundai are totally capable of doing the same things to their platforms, heck any brand is. See the GS-F, the Veloster N, etc. I haven't even mentioned the Americans (Cadillac V), Brits (Jaguar SV), Italians (Alfa's everything), and even French. Now with EV's we're seeing a renaissance in monster performance cars from even mainstream brands and platforms.

Toys4RJill

Mercedes, Audi and BMW are 10 years ahead of where Hyundai is with their Genesis brand and more specifically with the G90. Genesis still has no dealers. The power train options for Genesis are very far behind the Germans. The interior tech of a Mercedes is leagues ahead. No hybrids either with Genesis Nothing sporty either.