ArmyofOne

I was looking at new trucks (thinking of a 3/4 or 1 ton to pull a camper) and I got so frustrated that I said screw it and paid off my half ton instead. I FLAT OUT refuse to pay the prices dealers are asking for new vehicles these days, especially trucks. I went to buy a Ram 3500 limited (non dually), and it was $94,000. I was already never going to pay that much anyway, but then they added a $10,000 "Market adjustment" on for a total of $104,000 +TTL. That is absolutely insane. There are many vehicles out there that ARE worth that kind of money, but a ram isn't one of them. I don't care how nice they get, at the end of the day, its a truck and I am going to treat it as such.

My thinking has shifted these past few years and I think I would rather have a nice fun car than a fancy pickup, so the next time I do buy one (when prices come back down, and they will), It will be the absolute most basic one I can get with 4x4. We're talking vinyl seats, air conditioning, no carpet, thats it. I can add everything else I want aftermarket and do it better and cheaper than OEM's anyway.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

so i watched the video and the conclusion is reasonable that consumers should look more to their needs instead of their wants in deciding whether they need a new car, and what they should get and be willing to pay. fair enough.

but your point above, no, it's not price fixing.

let's compare the car business to the airline business. airline ticket prices can change BY THE SECOND, based on a ton of factors, such as how full is the plane already, what are the competitors doing, what seat are you getting, how 'loyal' a customer are you, is it a holiday, changing fuel prices, how much cargo they've already booked on the plane, how many times you've been on their website looking (yes!) and on and on.' There's no 'msrp' for an airline ticket! It's a highly dynamic market and the ticket that was $200 one day, is suddenly $500 the next day. get ready for cars to go in this direction.

the "MSRP" / "dealer price" and "invoice price" car model is ludicrously rigid for the most part, with the dealer usually the only 'variable'. Car makers themselves though want in on the 'flexibility' to react to a variety of factors and maximize profits, and are now charging extra for specific paint colors on more and more cars, they're clearly managing supply to 'encourage' consumers in one direction or another (nothing new there... as i've mentioned many times from years ago, look at how many lexus ES vs GS on a lot - pretty obvious the dealer wants to steer you to the easier ES sale), and they're not thrilled about their dealers adding thousands on top of their 'max' (MSRP) price.

so it's not price fixing or collusion, it's dynamic market-based pricing.

mmarshall

I disagree. Simply a generalization, not a stereotyping per se. Income-distribution is obviously not an exact science.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

well obviously they ARE selling to those who want one more than you do.

and the manufacturers know customers like you already (not that there's anything wrong with that ) and magically they'll be basically unavailable when you're looking for one.

so you'll probably get used instead (nothing wrong with that either), and the world goes on.

everyone wants a 'good deal', it's just everyone has a different idea of what that is, and often people have a lack of awareness as to how far (up) they're ultimately willing to go, even if not happy about it. and dealers and manufacturers know more about the psychology of the consumers and selling than the consumers know about themselves. that's why most people walking into a dealer are taking a knife to a gun fight (no chance).

i'm pretty pleased with the last 2 transactions i did. one (purchased) came to a point where the dealer said, what price will you buy the car for, i told them, they said ok. maybe i left something on the table but at least i got what i said i wanted (a hell of a lot less than where we started!). the other transaction (a lease) was a much more irritating process with complete lack of transparency on the dealer's part, and me working hard to come up with an accurate pricing calculation based on everything they did disclose or i could verify. when the price was still too far apart from what i calc'ed and what they claimed the payment should be, i told them i was done. magically they called the day before month end and said what price do you want, i told them and they gave it to me.

the usual huge waste of time on this, but i got 2 done at least. i suspect next time i won't be so lucky and dealers will take a much harder line and say this is the price, don't like it, see ya.

of course, the car economy can weaken and maybe the consumer will (with a lot of effort) be able to get better dealer again, but i'm not counting on it and expecting a struggle next time (my lease ends feb 2024).

mmarshall

Problem is......the industry, at least in the American market, seems to be doing fewer and fewer new sedans/coupes these days, and more and more crossovers/pick-ups/SUVs. Buick and Lincoln, for example, are all-SUV now, Ford almost all-truck/SUV, GMC and Jeep never had any regular cars to start with (discounting the Compass, a converted FWD compact-car), and Dodge/Chrysler on the way once their RWD cars are dropped.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

well how about just don't. In the 'midwest' you have all those hugely paid UAW workers you defend constantly too. I'm glad about them though, because as they retire, they're moving to florida. just a generalization though.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

no idea what that has to do with his post talking about buying a pickup.

mmarshall

His post, bit, was not about buying a pickup, but about not buying one. I merely pointed out correctly, (and I stand by my comment) that the new-car market-offering is shrinking, which will make that choice somewhat more restrictive as well.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

he said he would buy a stripper model truck.

mmarshall

OK.....rather than you and I argue Josh's post back and forth, let's let him clarify for himself. But, as I understood it, he said he would rather have a car.

Striker223

I don't know if you remember me from the Ramforumz but I went the same route. I still own the exercise in insanity though.....

Och

iTrader: (3)

When I was growing up in USSR, cars were in short demand and there was a waiting list to get one at GMRP (government mandated retail price). Those who had their turn would buy these cars and often sell them on the "gray" market for double of what they paid in the store. That is to say the price is controlled by demand, and cars in the US were and still are too cheap. You could lease a brand new midsize car or SUV for under $200 a month, which is less than what most people make in a day. In other places of the world people need to save for years to get a car.

These prices are not coming back, and they will continue to skyrocket. The automakers have realized that we need them more than they need us. Many automakers were operating at a loss or razor thin profit margins, and they are simply not willing to do it anymore. This is true of other industries as well, for instance steel has tripled since the pandemic, and steel mills are making more profit now in one shift than they were making in 2-3 shifts prior to the pandemic.

Indeed many people will have to adjust their lifestyles, in fact the auto industry and the world is going through a major shift to EVs and autonomous driving, and most of us don't entirely understand where its heading. I think the end goal is to have far less personal vehicles through higher prices, access to the charging infrastructure, etc.

ArmyofOne

As do I. I love my Ram, and with new truck prices doing what they are doing, It'll be the last new truck I ever buy unless I buy the stripped down base model, which I will likely have to order.

What I said was I would rather keep the truck I have than pay the ridiculous prices that are seemingly not optional now. One of my army buddies just bought a new F350, $114,000. That's insane. I just bought 49.7 acres of land in Oklahoma for $48k, arguably a much better investment than a depreciating asset that will turn into an even bigger expense as it ages.

That's crap. Vehicles in the US are FAR too expensive. In the 60's, yes, people used to save for years to get a car. The average salary was $1500 a year and cars would cost 2 or 3k, that gap is much much smaller than the average income today vs. the average new car price. And they say your car should be less than 20% of your income. The average pre tax income in the US is around 56k a year. 20% of that is about $11,000. Where TF can you buy a new car for $11,000? I will wait.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Who are “they”? Maybe you shouldnt spend more that 20% of your yearly income on a car meaning cost of lease or finance, and you can lease a car for 2k a year, so cars are indeed far too cheap. When you can lease a car for less than $200 a month, and a UAW employee costs the automaker over $100 per hour, the numbers just dont work out. You may not like it, but car prices will continue to skyrocket like housing prices.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I think that premise is off, perhaps the 20% of income means what one is spending on a car each year, not that the entire purchase price of a car should be 20% of one year's income. So a $500 car payment, is $6K a year and if that's 20% then the income is $30K. As you said it should be less than 20% so that sounds about right.

Obviously one can lease for less but the payments never end. Same old discussion on that... i don't like driving old cars so it's either pay up or lease. I did one of each this last time around.