Hyundai moving away from hydrogen
#31
Lexus Champion
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All else equal, the only practical way to add range is to increase the capacity of the battery, making it bigger and heavier. Batteries have existed for ever a century, Li-ion rechargeable batteries have been around for over three decades, they have no further room for improvement. Battery capacity hasn't increased in over a decade, most of the improvements has been to battery management withing battery packs, but that technology has pretty much hit the limit, any further improvements are going to be marginal and not practical from the standpoint of cost. Without a breakthrough in battery tech, its going to linger around what is available now, do not expect any "dramatic" improvements.
If the powers that be decide they can cash in on Hydrogen, they will start pushing it hard, much like they are currently doing with the EVs, and automakers will follow. Hydrogen infrastructure is far easier to build, as you can transport it in tanks much like they currently do with petrol, existing gas stations can be converted to hydrogen, you don't need to run it to every house, and if there is actually a breakthrough in hydrogen extracting tech, perhaps existing NG infrastructure could be used to supply hydrogen. Imagine burning hydrogen in your stove?
If the powers that be decide they can cash in on Hydrogen, they will start pushing it hard, much like they are currently doing with the EVs, and automakers will follow. Hydrogen infrastructure is far easier to build, as you can transport it in tanks much like they currently do with petrol, existing gas stations can be converted to hydrogen, you don't need to run it to every house, and if there is actually a breakthrough in hydrogen extracting tech, perhaps existing NG infrastructure could be used to supply hydrogen. Imagine burning hydrogen in your stove?
#32
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With Li-ion, you are correct, but there is still a lot of room for evolution of batteries, companies have made breakthroughs with SSD batteries and billions have been invested by automakers, companies like Samsung and Panasonic and a few startups. We are probably 5 to 10 years away from them actually getting into EV's, but I am confident they will happen and be a game changer
Lets just be objective, EV or ICE tech are nothing new, and even hydrogen ICE is not much different from petrol ICE. Hydrogen fuel cell tech is something drastically different, but at the same time its a convoluted clusterpluck. All these technologies ultimately rely on burning fossils, directly or indirectly. We don't live in a free market world, and the government agenda greatly affects which way the market sways and there are entire industries, such as solar, that would not exist without government subsidies. If the government decides to prop hydrogen in the future, most of those who are dismissing it now will quickly jump on the bandwagon.
That being said, I see a small potential for hydrogen in Germany, out of all places. Their government has gone completely off the rails, they are closing up all the nuclear and coal electric plants in the name of "saving the planet", while consumer electricity costs are absolutely skyrocketing. It seems that in the future they will have two choices - buy electricity from neighboring countries that have not yet reached the same level of hysteria, or buy hydrogen from Russia, where they can extract it in abundance by burning excessive amounts of natural gas, and pretend that its "green".
#33
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There is plenty of room for improvement lol
#34
Lexus Test Driver
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Especially since solid state is a decade away from mass commercialization. I don't understand where he says Tesla folk hate on Toyota in their solid state development...its the reverse in that we hope Toyota and Quantunscape get that thing mastered so that energy density goes up in batteries. In the meantime, lithium ion will take its place and improve as this BEV transition happens. Also, hydrogen technology is real...it just has to be pushed aggressively by a major player. Toyota pushed 1 hydrogen car in the last 10 years....one! Thats not how you push a technology into the market...not to mention it was worse than its ICE contemporaries in almost every way. At least BEV offers features that are different and have real advantages over its ICE counterparts that people appreciate (lower cost to fuel, lower cost to maintain, acceleration, etc...) even with its disadvantages.
If toyota really believed in Hydrogen, don't you think they would have made a stronger effort than 1 car?
If toyota really believed in Hydrogen, don't you think they would have made a stronger effort than 1 car?
#35
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Exactly lol. None of our technology has "topped out", its just arrogant to assume that is so.
#36
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Especially since solid state is a decade away from mass commercialization. I don't understand where he says Tesla folk hate on Toyota in their solid state development...its the reverse in that we hope Toyota and Quantunscape get that thing mastered so that energy density goes up in batteries. In the meantime, lithium ion will take its place and improve as this BEV transition happens.
Also, hydrogen technology is real...it just has to be pushed aggressively by a major player. Toyota pushed 1 hydrogen car in the last 10 years....one! Thats not how you push a technology into the market...not to mention it was worse than its ICE contemporaries in almost every way. At least BEV offers features that are different and have real advantages over its ICE counterparts that people appreciate (lower cost to fuel, lower cost to maintain, acceleration, etc...) even with its disadvantages.
If toyota really believed in Hydrogen, don't you think they would have made a stronger effort than 1 car?
If toyota really believed in Hydrogen, don't you think they would have made a stronger effort than 1 car?
#38
Lexus Champion
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Correct, solid state batteries would be considered a major break through in battery tech, although it still doesn't solve the issue of charging. Ironically, Toyota is heavily invested in the development of solid state batteries, yet certain Tesla fluffers on this board constantly badmouth Toyota for trying, saying they will never succeed, and only Tesla is doing it right by building battery packs stuffed with thousands of laptop batteries. Ditto with hydrogen, many correctly dismiss it (for now) due to pragmatic reasons, but others dismiss it simply because it goes against their Tesla religion.
Lets just be objective, EV or ICE tech are nothing new, and even hydrogen ICE is not much different from petrol ICE. Hydrogen fuel cell tech is something drastically different, but at the same time its a convoluted clusterpluck. All these technologies ultimately rely on burning fossils, directly or indirectly. We don't live in a free market world, and the government agenda greatly affects which way the market sways and there are entire industries, such as solar, that would not exist without government subsidies. If the government decides to prop hydrogen in the future, most of those who are dismissing it now will quickly jump on the bandwagon.
That being said, I see a small potential for hydrogen in Germany, out of all places. Their government has gone completely off the rails, they are closing up all the nuclear and coal electric plants in the name of "saving the planet", while consumer electricity costs are absolutely skyrocketing. It seems that in the future they will have two choices - buy electricity from neighboring countries that have not yet reached the same level of hysteria, or buy hydrogen from Russia, where they can extract it in abundance by burning excessive amounts of natural gas, and pretend that its "green".
Lets just be objective, EV or ICE tech are nothing new, and even hydrogen ICE is not much different from petrol ICE. Hydrogen fuel cell tech is something drastically different, but at the same time its a convoluted clusterpluck. All these technologies ultimately rely on burning fossils, directly or indirectly. We don't live in a free market world, and the government agenda greatly affects which way the market sways and there are entire industries, such as solar, that would not exist without government subsidies. If the government decides to prop hydrogen in the future, most of those who are dismissing it now will quickly jump on the bandwagon.
That being said, I see a small potential for hydrogen in Germany, out of all places. Their government has gone completely off the rails, they are closing up all the nuclear and coal electric plants in the name of "saving the planet", while consumer electricity costs are absolutely skyrocketing. It seems that in the future they will have two choices - buy electricity from neighboring countries that have not yet reached the same level of hysteria, or buy hydrogen from Russia, where they can extract it in abundance by burning excessive amounts of natural gas, and pretend that its "green".
#39
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Well there was Ogle's Carburetor. Some conspiracy theories surrounding his death suggest big oil had a hand.
What Tom Ogle had in mind was simply outrageous. He replaced the carburetor in internal combustion engines with a device he created to achieve an impressive mpg, which is 100, to be precise.
The concept sounds quite unbelievable. Let’s dive deeper into the mechanism of that engine to have a better understanding of how that engine would have worked had it been materialized.
In 1977, Ogle applied his revolutionary innovation on a 1970 Ford Galaxie featuring a V8 engine (427 hp) and a 3-gallon tank. He used a multiple-vapor system in that car and drove it for 100 miles. It was shocking that Ogle achieved that much fuel efficiency in a 4,000+ pounds car, so a lighter car could provide much more mileage.
![](https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ford-galaxie.jpg)
https://carfromjapan.com/article/car...ngine-concept/
Tom Ogle Engine: An Old Concept for the Future?
In this age of high fuel price, owning a big car like those big SUVs is certainly financially challenging. They cause a dent in your wallet in no time by guzzling down gallons of fuel within a short distance. Won’t it be great to drive a car that can go 100 miles on a single gallon? Tom Ogle engine might make that dream come true, but it’s still only a hypothesis.What Tom Ogle had in mind was simply outrageous. He replaced the carburetor in internal combustion engines with a device he created to achieve an impressive mpg, which is 100, to be precise.
The concept sounds quite unbelievable. Let’s dive deeper into the mechanism of that engine to have a better understanding of how that engine would have worked had it been materialized.
How did the Tom Ogle Engine Work?
Tom Ogle was an American inventor who came up with the idea of a vapor carburetor that makes an internal combustion engine highly fuel-efficient.In 1977, Ogle applied his revolutionary innovation on a 1970 Ford Galaxie featuring a V8 engine (427 hp) and a 3-gallon tank. He used a multiple-vapor system in that car and drove it for 100 miles. It was shocking that Ogle achieved that much fuel efficiency in a 4,000+ pounds car, so a lighter car could provide much more mileage.
![](https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ford-galaxie.jpg)
What was changed in the Tom Ogle engine? Most internal combustion engines use a carburetor and fuel pump. Liquid fuel is transferred into the combustion chambers and it gets burned to provide power to the engine.
Ogle replaced this carburetor and fuel pump with a black box filter and the combustion chambers were injected with vaporized gasoline. For many people, including scientists, it was hard to digest that such a simple fix could bring such a revolutionary result. So, they checked the modified engine for hidden fuel tanks, but none was found.
Once, Ogle was running a lawnmower and created a hole in the device accidentally. To fix the damage and keep the machine still working, he used a vacuum line from the carburetor inlet to the engine. Doing this actually increased the fuel efficiency of the machine, and a small tank of fuel kept it running for 96 hours.
Encouraged by this discovery, Ogle applied this technique to an automobile engine. But it did not go as planned. Without a carburetor, the engine tanks collapsed, the speed was slow, and it was gulping a great amount of fuel. The modified vehicle used a gallon for 8 miles, and its average speed was 20 mph.
This was disappointing, but Ogle was determined to find a solution. He found out that the absence of a carburetor was freezing the gas tank, such as ice cubes. He solved the issue by using heater coils. The coils kept the gas tank at normal temperature, and this simple fix finally made the car running 100 miles on a single gallon.
But what happened to Ogle after that successful demonstration? Why the Tom Ogle engine did not come to the market or even had a single prototype?
Well, he indeed was able to have a line of investors ready to get the project off the ground. However, every investor wanted to get a larger share of the profit, which caused unnecessary delay. Ogle was also having family problems as his wife had left him. He started having drinking problems and just collapsed to death one day. It’s hard to tell whether the engine would be a real thing but his project was left in limbo after his death, and it lost traction with time.
The Tom Ogle engine concept has always been a heated topic among automobile enthusiasts. The ‘Tales of the 100 mpg carburetor’ have still going strong for decades after Ogle’s death. In fact, you always hear about those small companies or independent inventors with the claim that they have the blueprint of that mythical highly-efficient internal combustion engine. Needless to say that none of them has been able to produce a prototype or give proof about their invention.
Modern hybrid cars have come a long way regarding achieving a higher mileage. Currently, these vehicles consume 30% to 60% less fuel than gasoline vehicles. Maybe it would be possible to develop a technology for achieving even more fuel efficiency in the near future, something that Ogle had invented (arguably) decades ago.
Ogle replaced this carburetor and fuel pump with a black box filter and the combustion chambers were injected with vaporized gasoline. For many people, including scientists, it was hard to digest that such a simple fix could bring such a revolutionary result. So, they checked the modified engine for hidden fuel tanks, but none was found.
Where did Ogle Get the Idea from?
You might be wondering how did Ogle get such a groundbreaking idea? Well, as like many great inventions, Ogle also stumbled into that innovative idea accidentally. The whole idea of a fuel-efficient super engine came from a deformed lawnmower.Once, Ogle was running a lawnmower and created a hole in the device accidentally. To fix the damage and keep the machine still working, he used a vacuum line from the carburetor inlet to the engine. Doing this actually increased the fuel efficiency of the machine, and a small tank of fuel kept it running for 96 hours.
Encouraged by this discovery, Ogle applied this technique to an automobile engine. But it did not go as planned. Without a carburetor, the engine tanks collapsed, the speed was slow, and it was gulping a great amount of fuel. The modified vehicle used a gallon for 8 miles, and its average speed was 20 mph.
This was disappointing, but Ogle was determined to find a solution. He found out that the absence of a carburetor was freezing the gas tank, such as ice cubes. He solved the issue by using heater coils. The coils kept the gas tank at normal temperature, and this simple fix finally made the car running 100 miles on a single gallon.
What Happened to Tom Ogle and His Invention?
You can run an internal combustion engine on evaporated gas, but it’s not a practical idea. There are various reasons for carmakers not being able to replicate Ogle’s concept or something similar.But what happened to Ogle after that successful demonstration? Why the Tom Ogle engine did not come to the market or even had a single prototype?
Well, he indeed was able to have a line of investors ready to get the project off the ground. However, every investor wanted to get a larger share of the profit, which caused unnecessary delay. Ogle was also having family problems as his wife had left him. He started having drinking problems and just collapsed to death one day. It’s hard to tell whether the engine would be a real thing but his project was left in limbo after his death, and it lost traction with time.
The Tom Ogle engine concept has always been a heated topic among automobile enthusiasts. The ‘Tales of the 100 mpg carburetor’ have still going strong for decades after Ogle’s death. In fact, you always hear about those small companies or independent inventors with the claim that they have the blueprint of that mythical highly-efficient internal combustion engine. Needless to say that none of them has been able to produce a prototype or give proof about their invention.
Modern hybrid cars have come a long way regarding achieving a higher mileage. Currently, these vehicles consume 30% to 60% less fuel than gasoline vehicles. Maybe it would be possible to develop a technology for achieving even more fuel efficiency in the near future, something that Ogle had invented (arguably) decades ago.
#40
Lexus Fanatic
#43
Lexus Test Driver
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Originally Posted by Och
Yes, but only at chargers that have the capacity of delivery so much energy in such short time, which must be even more powerful than current Tesla Superchargers, and all the infrastructure behind them. Not something that you'll ever have in your house.
#44
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Level 2 charging is all you would ever need at home, even if it takes 8 hours. You come home and plug in your car at night and go to bed, in the morning and you are fully charged. If for some reason I need fast charging, I can go to a charging station, they are all over where I live, Level 3 chargers are only 10 minutes away from my home and work
#45
Lexus Champion
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Well there was Ogle's Carburetor. Some conspiracy theories surrounding his death suggest big oil had a hand.
https://carfromjapan.com/article/car...ngine-concept/
https://carfromjapan.com/article/car...ngine-concept/