tex2670

Scion debuted with the xA, xB and tC. Which Toyota models were rebadged as the equivalent for those 3 models? I don't remember any Toyota product that looked like any of those 3 models.

Toys4RJill

They are rebadges in the sense that they were just Toyota’s with a Scion logo and branding. They were nothing special. All Toyota parts bin. Saturn was its own company and corporation at first, which was not fully owned by GM until after a few years.

LeX2K

Saturn had a good thing going, profit or not GM should have left them alone I think they would have thrived. But of course GM got inpatient and the rest is history.

mmarshall

You're correct, tex. Except for the FR-S, Scions were not rebadges per se.......at least not in the U.S. where the Scion nameplate was used. (they were sold as Toytas overseas). They did, however, share platforms and drivetrains.

One of the interesting things about the shoe-box xB was that, like most Scion products, it was marketed towards younger people, but actual numbers showed that many senior citizens were buying it because of the no-stress/no-haggle deals, easy entry/exit/seating-height, good space efficiency inside, and, of course, Toyota reliability, although I don't think I would want a car with center-stack gauges like the xB had.

tex2670

OK well then you and I have a very different definition of a "rebadge" in the auto industry then.

mmarshall

Absolutely.

Toys4RJill

Looks like a rebadge to me.

Och

iTrader: (3)

tex2670

I see what you are saying - Toyota models not available as Toyotas in North America.

Lots of companies do this - Acura and Lexus included.

mmarshall

Yes......as far as I know, though I could be wrong on this, the Scion name was only used in North America.

One thing I didn't like about several different Scion models, whether rebadged Toyotas or not, was the center-stack gauges. I'm not just picking on Scion here.....the Toyota Echo, Saturn Ion, Nissan Quest, Panoz roadsters, and several other vehicles had the same (IMO) crappy design. The manufacturers claimed it was for improved driver-visibility, so the steering wheel didn't block them. I say bull-s***.........it was a cost-cutting move to make both left and right-hand-drive versions easier and cheaper to produce. And most drivers are used to looking straight ahead, not to the side, for primary-gauge-information.

Toys4RJill

I am glad you see what I am saying. I think it goes further than this, Saturn was its own company (at first at least), whereas Acura/Honda are just Hondas at the end of the day and Toyota/Lexus/Scion are all just Toyotas. Later on, I think GM absorbed Saturn to become a complete brand and less of its own stand alone company.

mmarshall

Correct. The Saturn S-series, from 1990 to 2000, were completely unlike any other GM car (or any other GM product, except for perhaps the plastic-body/space-framed FWD Dust-Buster minivans). They had their own factory, platforms, space-frames, plastic-body panels, engines, transmissions, paint-work....and a specially-trained work force that was given special perks that other UAW members didn't get. This was TRULY, in every sense of the word, a new company/division, a new car, a new customer/sales experience, a new worker experience, and a whole new way of doing business. IMO, for a mass-market brand, it has never been equalled in the auto industry, before or since, even with the no-haggle Scion franchises.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

perhaps we can move on from saturn/scion which are not what this thread topic is about.

AMIRZA786

I get that you and others loved the Saturn platform and the way they made buying and ownership easier etc, and I totally respect that. But the fact is it never turned a profit and could never compete with it's Japanese rivals. GM's business decisions which ultimately killed Saturn were probably based on the fact it was shedding money. Now on the no haggle, making buying easier part, the only way to do that is to kill the dealership model and sell directly to the public online or through a "Spaces" network, which is still essentially online. The problem with that is legacy automakers have binding agreements with dealerships, and lot of states, politicians and judges are in the pocket of dealerships, making it impossible. I bought 7 and leased 2 new cars in the last 30 years, and 8 of them were from dealerships where I spent hours negotiating and haggling. My only real good experience was with PoleStar where I didn't have to haggle over price, did 99 percent of the purchasing online with no human intervention, and can say that I was pleasantly surprised how happy I was at the end of the purchase

****EDIT***** Just saw your last post @bitkahuna . This will be my last word on this topic

mmarshall

I did not have fly-by-wire systems in the aircraft I flew. You flew mostly with stick-and-rudder skills, with some occasional help from the autopilot of needed. I retired from the FAA, and from General-Aviation flying, before many of these systems became widespread.

In fact, IMO that is one of the problems with flying today......pilots often don't have much in the way of stick-and-rudder skills any more, and have become essentially Flight-Managers while computers do most of the work. And we saw, with the Boeing 737 Max, what can happen when computers screw up....it sometimes overrides the ability of the pilots to override them and take manual control of the plane.