General Car Conversation
#6391
Lexus Champion
I have not driven X7. I thought I would be identical but it didn't seem so from his post. In my 40i, it's almost annoying to drive in S+ on local streets. I love it when on freeway because it responds instantly and steering is nice. But on local streets, stop and go, it's freaking annoying. I can not drive it. There is Sport Individual where you can change certain settings and basically you can make it like Comfort. Some do this to bypass the ***. Like yours, it can be coded to remember last state/default state. Maybe BMW does the same way like yours when it starts out at different gear. The difference is day and night to me. The sound too esp when you add IconicSound to it.
#6392
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Im surprised you guys need to code a default state, my Audis just remain where they were left. I hear you that low speed driving is annoying in sport+, that feeling of inconsistent/jerky power is something I've remarked on many times with turbo engines when you aren't being aggressive.
#6393
Lexus Champion
Oh, well suddenly my Mpg makes more sense lol! I guess my listed is assumed the car is left in full aggressive, I guess it didn't matter for CAFE at the time?
#6395
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
I have no idea which one does a better job, all I can say, is downsizing from a 6 to 4 is a terrible thing to do. Especially if you’re using or used to V6 engines for a long time. There is nothing to convince me, that a four-cylinder is superior to a V6. Four cylinders are noisy, and they vibrate, and an RX is supposed to be a luxury crossover
in europe a HUGE majority of 'luxury' cars are 2.0L or less turbo 4 cyl engines.
#6396
Lexus Test Driver
It would be interesting to get data from the automakers whether the 4 or 6 cylinder versions of their cars sell better, but I'd bet in most cases it's the 4.
There's no way that there are more 340i's than 330i's out there.
There's no way that there are more 340i's than 330i's out there.
#6398
Lexus Champion
I personally liked the large NA V8 I had in my SRT Durango compared to the TTV8 in my X7. I loved the torque off the line of the large V8 in the SRT Durango where even at half throttle it jumped of the line faster. With the X7 it doesn't do that and I'm sure it wasn't really meant to do that or feel that way since they are for different buyers but for me give me the big hemi V8. The one benefit I do see is that gas mileage is noticeably better with the smaller TTV8.
Lol, NA big displacement torque is a real thing. I don't think he has it in any incorrect setting, I know exactly what he means. A huge V8 will pull/fly off the line quicker and more satisfactorily than a turbo counterpart. Ecoboost versus GM 6.2 I just compared, perfect example of that. Similar power, different delivery. NA V8 wins.
#6399
Super Moderator
Lol, NA big displacement torque is a real thing. I don't think he has it in any incorrect setting, I know exactly what he means. A huge V8 will pull/fly off the line quicker and more satisfactorily than a turbo counterpart. Ecoboost versus GM 6.2 I just compared, perfect example of that. Similar power, different delivery. NA V8 wins.
It makes so much torque down low that Mercedes decided to have it start in 2nd gear because that was more befitting of a setting called "Comfort". If the engine was anemic off the line they would have had it start in first. Steve's re-code has it default to sport, which forces it to start in 1st and restores that "instant" throttle response.
#6400
Lexus Champion
He doesn't have an Ecoboost, he has a V8 with two twin-scroll turbos in a Hot-vee configuration. It already makes ~25 lbft more torque at idle than the GM 6.2, and skyrockets to a dead flat ~520lbft peak from 1700-4500rpm; while the NA takes its time getting to ~460lbft at 4200rpm. Torque curves here for the S560 and here for a 6.2L Tahoe
It makes so much torque down low that Mercedes decided to have it start in 2nd gear because that was more befitting of a setting called "Comfort". If the engine was anemic off the line they would have had it start in first. Steve's re-code has it default to sport, which forces it to start in 1st and restores that "instant" throttle response.
It makes so much torque down low that Mercedes decided to have it start in 2nd gear because that was more befitting of a setting called "Comfort". If the engine was anemic off the line they would have had it start in first. Steve's re-code has it default to sport, which forces it to start in 1st and restores that "instant" throttle response.
For example, one of the bridesmaids for the wedding we were just at and had an R230 SL and I drove it yesterday and I finally experienced the old 5.5 NA with 391/ft/lb... Was blown away by the second gear pull, way faster than our SL. Turbo not needed, lol.
#6401
Lexus Test Driver
I'm not comparing a truck engine/truck to an S-class, I just mean in general. But FWIW I've been in an S-class several times and there's a hint of lag, not much at all but it is there.
For example, one of the bridesmaids for the wedding we were just at and had an R230 SL and I drove it yesterday and I finally experienced the old 5.5 NA with 391/ft/lb... Was blown away by the second gear pull, way faster than our SL. Turbo not needed, lol.
For example, one of the bridesmaids for the wedding we were just at and had an R230 SL and I drove it yesterday and I finally experienced the old 5.5 NA with 391/ft/lb... Was blown away by the second gear pull, way faster than our SL. Turbo not needed, lol.
i'd also love to drive the previous gen E55 with the 5.4 N/A since i've only experienced that engine in the ML55, and even in that heavy truck it was fun and muscley feeling... with several hundred pounds less to move around an E-class with that engine must be super fun
#6402
Lexus Champion
He doesn't have an Ecoboost, he has a V8 with two twin-scroll turbos in a Hot-vee configuration. It already makes ~25 lbft more torque at idle than the GM 6.2, and skyrockets to a dead flat ~520lbft peak from 1700-4500rpm; while the NA takes its time getting to ~460lbft at 4200rpm. Torque curves here for the S560 and here for a 6.2L Tahoe
It makes so much torque down low that Mercedes decided to have it start in 2nd gear because that was more befitting of a setting called "Comfort". If the engine was anemic off the line they would have had it start in first. Steve's re-code has it default to sport, which forces it to start in 1st and restores that "instant" throttle response.
It makes so much torque down low that Mercedes decided to have it start in 2nd gear because that was more befitting of a setting called "Comfort". If the engine was anemic off the line they would have had it start in first. Steve's re-code has it default to sport, which forces it to start in 1st and restores that "instant" throttle response.
Those charts are assuming boost threshold is met and gates/bypasses are closed. On paper is different than reality, on paper my 4.0 has more TQ than my W12 but reality is much different and it also doesn't carry TQ into the upper RPMs as well, the 4.0 has a savage TQ hit at 2000-4000 then it actually drops below the 12 and the 13 then actually ramps up from 450 up to 500 for 4000-5000 rpm where the 4.0 is dropping off fast.
There is also no boost threshold with the 12 and it has 420 off idle truly instantly at any throttle or gear once you are at 1100 rpm, the TTV8 can't do that. It needs 2300ish to have boost at part throttle and it's not seamless and can be jerky in comparison. That same 6.2 in a car is a whole different animal and while sure it will lose every time to a hot-V (part of the reason I never considered one) it's extremely direct. After trying turbos I'm sticking with NA and supercharged for the instant response/1:1 input to TQ
#6403
Lexus Champion
i'd really love to get your opinion on the M113 Kompressor with 520+ ft/lbs
i'd also love to drive the previous gen E55 with the 5.4 N/A since i've only experienced that engine in the ML55, and even in that heavy truck it was fun and muscley feeling... with several hundred pounds less to move around an E-class with that engine must be super fun
i'd also love to drive the previous gen E55 with the 5.4 N/A since i've only experienced that engine in the ML55, and even in that heavy truck it was fun and muscley feeling... with several hundred pounds less to move around an E-class with that engine must be super fun
#6404
while there's nothing to convince YOU, tons of buyers don't care. when the E350 went to the E300 mercedes with the 4 cyl turbo, they continued to sell tons of them. a friend of mine who leases one e-class after another was shocked when i told him his e300 had a 4 cyl engine in it. he had no idea. and that e300 was definitely smooth. yes at higher rpms the 4 cyl sound become obvious but other than that, it was great.
in europe a HUGE majority of 'luxury' cars are 2.0L or less turbo 4 cyl engines.
in europe a HUGE majority of 'luxury' cars are 2.0L or less turbo 4 cyl engines.
#6405
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
What it is is golden old school American V8 power he's talking about that his Durango had, the kind that everyone's (in general) forgotten about. A huge V8 has massive instant torque.
Lol, NA big displacement torque is a real thing. I don't think he has it in any incorrect setting, I know exactly what he means. A huge V8 will pull/fly off the line quicker and more satisfactorily than a turbo counterpart. Ecoboost versus GM 6.2 I just compared, perfect example of that. Similar power, different delivery. NA V8 wins.
Lol, NA big displacement torque is a real thing. I don't think he has it in any incorrect setting, I know exactly what he means. A huge V8 will pull/fly off the line quicker and more satisfactorily than a turbo counterpart. Ecoboost versus GM 6.2 I just compared, perfect example of that. Similar power, different delivery. NA V8 wins.
The V8 in the X7 has peak torque available at 1800 RPM. 2,100 RPM earlier than the Durango and it has almost 200 ft lbs more toruque. The X7 50i also does 0-60 a full second faster than the Hemi Durango. The Hemi has similar power to the I6 X7, the V8 is dramatically more powerful and has that peak power available much lower in the power band. In his scenario just like in my car the drive mode is retarding the throttle response in the name of smoothness.
I know you like NA V8s, but like we said in the fuel economy discussion you can't beat physics, an engine with similar power and torque available at much lower RPM will feel much faster in everyday driving. If you are WOT with both, then no because you will be in the torque powerband for the NA engine too, but when accelerating from a light normally the turbo engine will feel much peppier, thats just physics.
Originally Posted by Striker223
There is still a delay
In 41,000 miles of driving my S560 I have never felt any sort of turbo lag whatsoever. It feels no different in throttle smoothness or power availability vs the many NA V8s I have had, other than it having much more power lower down in the RPM band. Maybe if you're calling for WOT all the time you might feel some delay, but if you drive it like 99% of people will drive it, theres nothing not to love. I don't miss the NA V8s I had one bit.
Last edited by SW17LS; 08-29-23 at 09:00 AM.