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The only time I've felt even a hint of lag in a Mercedes 4.0TT was when I was having some fun in Boulder, CO and was intentionally looking for some elevation-related peaky delivery. Of course, the equivalent NA V8 would have been comparatively gasping for air so forced induction wins in that situation anyways.
What it is is golden old school American V8 power he's talking about that his Durango had, the kind that everyone's (in general) forgotten about. A huge V8 has massive instant torque.
Lol, NA big displacement torque is a real thing. I don't think he has it in any incorrect setting, I know exactly what he means. A huge V8 will pull/fly off the line quicker and more satisfactorily than a turbo counterpart.
as the joke goes, nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
that durango engine makes you THINK there's no lag because what IS instant is NOISE. the power comes after. but after a brief moment, sure, the power comes on. but the s560 will leave it in the dust, at all speeds.
the other thing is the hemi v8 is HORRIBLY inefficient.
i remember test driving a jeep grand cherokee srt a few years back. a hoot to drive, but it wasn't for me.
As was said before, we are talking about a near 500 hp ttV8 not an EcoBoost, what you describe is just not true of an engine like this. The Hemi V8 in the Durango only has 360 hp and 390 lb ft of torque. The V8 in the X7 is massively more powerful. The HEMI has peak torque at 3,900 RPM which is low for a NA engine, but my S560 has peak torque at 2,000 RPM and has 125 more lb feet of torque. "Big displacement V8" or not the engine in my car is much more powerful. Of course starting in second gear vs first gear makes a huge difference in throttle response.
The V8 in the X7 has peak torque available at 1800 RPM. 2,100 RPM earlier than the Durango and it has almost 200 ft lbs more toruque. The X7 50i also does 0-60 a full second faster than the Hemi Durango. The Hemi has similar power to the I6 X7, the V8 is dramatically more powerful and has that peak power available much lower in the power band. In his scenario just like in my car the drive mode is retarding the throttle response in the name of smoothness.
I know you like NA V8s, but like we said in the fuel economy discussion you can't beat physics, an engine with similar power and torque available at much lower RPM will feel much faster in everyday driving. If you are WOT with both, then no because you will be in the torque powerband for the NA engine too, but when accelerating from a light normally the turbo engine will feel much peppier, thats just physics.
In 41,000 miles of driving my S560 I have never felt any sort of turbo lag whatsoever. It feels no different in throttle smoothness or power availability vs the many NA V8s I have had, other than it having much more power lower down in the RPM band. Maybe if you're calling for WOT all the time you might feel some delay, but if you drive it like 99% of people will drive it, theres nothing not to love. I don't miss the NA V8s I had one bit.
I know my X7 is faster than my Durango but when driving to get to that level of torque I have to press the gas pedal so much further than with the Durango to get that instant torque. On paper you are correct but in reality the feel is so much better with the Durango without having to floor it everywhere. That to me is where the difference is, it’s really just the feeling.
All 4 cyls aren't like that. None of them sound as good as a V6, but some of them are close.
Reality is though, by and large buyers don't care. Look at the MB GLE, they have available a 350 4 cyl, a 450 6 cyl and a 580 8 cyl. Overwhelmingly you see 4 cyl GLE350s...if I see a GLE450 its rare, and a GLE580 is almost impossible to find on the road.
Again, a four-cylinder engine is not a replacement for a six cylinder engine. Likewise, a six cylinder engine is not a replacement for eight cylinder engine. Further, turbo charged engines, usually require premium fuel. The new Lexus RX is more costly to run in the four-cylinder turbo mode, than it was in naturally aspirated V6. Also, spark plugs need to be changed more frequently, The only replacement for the Lexus RX V6 would be a new V6 engine that would be naturally aspirated or turbo.
why am I opposed to turbo charged engines, it’s because they require more parts, more radiators, air filters, and in some cases, active grill shutter’s. None of these things factor into the lifespan of any of the naturally aspirated vehicles I currently have. I also like to keep my car’s for a very long time. I also oppose hybrids for the most part as well as long term they are more complicated than regular gas motors. Even more complicated is a turbo charged Hybrid.
I would accept a turbo charged engine, as long as the size of engine is relatively close to its replacement.
why am I opposed to turbo charged engines, it’s because they require more parts, more radiators, air filters, and in some cases, active grill shutter’s. None of these things factor into the lifespan of any of the naturally aspirated vehicles I currently have. I also like to keep my car’s for a very long time. I also oppose hybrids for the most part as well as long term they are more complicated than regular gas motors. Even more complicated is a turbo charged Hybrid. I would accept a turbo charged engine, as long as the size of engine is relatively close to its replacement.
well you may have difficulty replacing any of your cars with new ones then as NA engines are becoming less and less available.
manufacturing precision has made engines much more reliable, even with hugely increasing complexity. even NA engines with direct injection, atkinson cycles, and so on, are enormously complex. if you want simple, get an ev. battery, motor(s), boom.
It must have been the SRT part you didn't like, because, as I recall, you owned a JGC for several years.
that's why i said it was a test drive and yes, i had a JGC v6 at the time... fine vehicle, and i was looking at what was next, and sales guy asked if i wanted to try to srt. i figured might as well take it for a spin!
Frankly, I don't disagree with you. In the driving conditions of today, monster engines and sport-underpinnings are not my bag either.
you live in a densely populated area afaik. i don't. so my lc500 with a 'monster' v8 engine and sport underpinnings is wonderful, not only on fun empty roads, but also on the highway. in the city i'd rather be in a complete cocoon which is why the cadillac lyric is of interest although probably more than i want to spend if i replace the santa fe.
I know my X7 is faster than my Durango but when driving to get to that level of torque I have to press the gas pedal so much further than with the Durango to get that instant torque. On paper you are correct but in reality the feel is so much better with the Durango without having to floor it everywhere. That to me is where the difference is, it’s really just the feeling.
I really think its the drive mode and if you tried in in the sport setting for a while you would find its different. I bet in comfort it starts in second gear like mine does.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Again, a four-cylinder engine is not a replacement for a six cylinder engine. Likewise, a six cylinder engine is not a replacement for eight cylinder engine. Further, turbo charged engines, usually require premium fuel. The new Lexus RX is more costly to run in the four-cylinder turbo mode, than it was in naturally aspirated V6. Also, spark plugs need to be changed more frequently, The only replacement for the Lexus RX V6 would be a new V6 engine that would be naturally aspirated or turbo.
For most buyers though, it is an acceptable replacement thats the point, and it where the industry is going so like it or not it is what it is.
For most buyers though, it is an acceptable replacement thats the point, and it where the industry is going so like it or not it is what it is.
it is not an acceptable replacement. That is not the point. Lexus has not offered a proper replacement. Sad as Toyota is the largest company making automobiles. Reread what I wrote, the new RX is more costly to run to the outgoing RX end it has less cylinders. That is not acceptable.
it is not an acceptable replacement. That is not the point. Lexus has not offered a proper replacement. Sad as Toyota is the largest company making automobiles. Reread what I wrote, the new RX is more costly to run to the outgoing RX. That is not acceptable.
But if you look at sales, people are still buying the car and they're still happy with the car, so its hard to say its not an acceptable replacement. Only way to say that is if you saw sales decline and people were not buying the car because of the powertrain.
The LS500 for instance, for a fact you have people not buying that car because they did away with the V8, you can say that was a mistake for sure but I see lots of RXs running around.
it is not an acceptable replacement. That is not the point. Lexus has not offered a proper replacement. Sad as Toyota is the largest company making automobiles. Reread what I wrote, the new RX is more costly to run to the outgoing RX end it has less cylinders. That is not acceptable.
Acceptable or not is the $ numbers on their paper. What some "cars" person on the internet thinks doesn't mean jack to them. Look at how the new BMWs look like now.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Again, a four-cylinder engine is not a replacement for a six cylinder engine. Likewise, a six cylinder engine is not a replacement for eight cylinder engine. Further, turbo charged engines, usually require premium fuel. The new Lexus RX is more costly to run in the four-cylinder turbo mode, than it was in naturally aspirated V6. Also, spark plugs need to be changed more frequently, The only replacement for the Lexus RX V6 would be a new V6 engine that would be naturally aspirated or turbo.
why am I opposed to turbo charged engines, it’s because they require more parts, more radiators, air filters, and in some cases, active grill shutter’s. None of these things factor into the lifespan of any of the naturally aspirated vehicles I currently have. I also like to keep my car’s for a very long time. I also oppose hybrids for the most part as well as long term they are more complicated than regular gas motors. Even more complicated is a turbo charged Hybrid.
I would accept a turbo charged engine, as long as the size of engine is relatively close to its replacement.
I guess we pick out things differently. From your post, I think the new RX is a wonderful replacement. It's also more luxurious.
As was said before, we are talking about a near 500 hp ttV8 not an EcoBoost, what you describe is just not true of an engine like this. The Hemi V8 in the Durango only has 360 hp and 390 lb ft of torque. The V8 in the X7 is massively more powerful. The HEMI has peak torque at 3,900 RPM which is low for a NA engine, but my S560 has peak torque at 2,000 RPM and has 125 more lb feet of torque. "Big displacement V8" or not the engine in my car is much more powerful. Of course starting in second gear vs first gear makes a huge difference in throttle response.
The V8 in the X7 has peak torque available at 1800 RPM. 2,100 RPM earlier than the Durango and it has almost 200 ft lbs more toruque. The X7 50i also does 0-60 a full second faster than the Hemi Durango. The Hemi has similar power to the I6 X7, the V8 is dramatically more powerful and has that peak power available much lower in the power band. In his scenario just like in my car the drive mode is retarding the throttle response in the name of smoothness.
I know you like NA V8s, but like we said in the fuel economy discussion you can't beat physics, an engine with similar power and torque available at much lower RPM will feel much faster in everyday driving. If you are WOT with both, then no because you will be in the torque powerband for the NA engine too, but when accelerating from a light normally the turbo engine will feel much peppier, thats just physics.
In 41,000 miles of driving my S560 I have never felt any sort of turbo lag whatsoever. It feels no different in throttle smoothness or power availability vs the many NA V8s I have had, other than it having much more power lower down in the RPM band. Maybe if you're calling for WOT all the time you might feel some delay, but if you drive it like 99% of people will drive it, theres nothing not to love. I don't miss the NA V8s I had one bit.
Try a 12 or full size V8.
The TTV8s have delay and dead spots vs 6+ L V8s and vs any 12, I doesn't matter if I ask for more out of my engine when when I ask it it sometimes takes .25-.5 seconds to hit boost. They also like to shift a lot, that's the biggest difference for me, driving them back to back same car/trans etc but with a gearing ADVANTAGE for the V8 it still shifts a lot more. The larger engine simply doesn't need to shift for part throttle demand and again provides more force at lower rpm in gear. Same thing when I'm driving fully relaxed, I get too close to boost threshold and all of the sudden I get 150 extra Lb/ft I didn't really ask for and a "swell" of power that changes acceleration. It's not 1:1 on any of the TTV8s
Sure it's totally superior to most NA engines but I still do not prefer it over supercharged engines of the same power.....or vs same power NA V8s but stuff that large is rare.
I really think its the drive mode and if you tried in in the sport setting for a while you would find its different. I bet in comfort it starts in second gear like mine does.
For most buyers though, it is an acceptable replacement thats the point, and it where the industry is going so like it or not it is what it is.
Im telling you it's not, turbo engines have a boost threshold. NA and super engines don't do unless you pre-spool the turbo engine it CANT start in boost.
Im telling you it's not, turbo engines have a boost threshold. NA and super engines don't do unless you pre-spool the turbo engine it CANT start in boost.
Hardly anybody cares. I don’t care, and I’m an enthusiast. I never determine when my engine is “in boost” or not, I just drive it and it feels powerful, smooth and great. You dig way deeper into the nuts and bolts of what an engine is doing than almost anybody else.
When I push the gas, I get a smooth wave of effortless power with very little throttle input. What the engine does to give me that means nothing to me.
As for 6+L engines, I have driven vehicles with them, and no vehicle I would ever buy would have one so comparing to them doesn’t make any sense. Same with a V12, never going to own a car with a V12.
All the people running around with turbo 4 cyls in their cars too are perfectly happy with their engines, many of them don't even know how many cylinders they have.
08-29-23 | 10:18 AM
