General Car Conversation
08-29-23, 12:23 PM
#6421
Lexus Champion
I know my X7 is faster than my Durango but when driving to get to that level of torque I have to press the gas pedal so much further than with the Durango to get that instant torque. On paper you are correct but in reality the feel is so much better with the Durango without having to floor it everywhere. That to me is where the difference is, it’s really just the feeling.
So what? So is the Stellantis replacement, I find it hilarious for example in the Grand Wagoneer that they dropped the 6.4 and replaced it with this Stellantis trying to play the fuel economy card for one MPG? In real world it won't do any better or maybe worse honestly. People don't drive these powerful BOFs (regardless of powertrain) with light feet, that's what makes them fun. And they don't care about gas mileage nearly as much as Uncle Sam does, if at all.
i'd really love to get your opinion on the M113 Kompressor with 520+ ft/lbs 
i'd also love to drive the previous gen E55 with the 5.4 N/A since i've only experienced that engine in the ML55, and even in that heavy truck it was fun and muscley feeling... with several hundred pounds less to move around an E-class with that engine must be super fun
i'd also love to drive the previous gen E55 with the 5.4 N/A since i've only experienced that engine in the ML55, and even in that heavy truck it was fun and muscley feeling... with several hundred pounds less to move around an E-class with that engine must be super fun
Yes, there is. That was my issue with the Ecoboost versus GM 6.2. As I've said before, the responsiveness of the NA V8, you can't ever catch the Denali flat footed, ever. And I've tried. Ecoboost I caught with its pants down more times than I would have preferred.
08-29-23, 12:35 PM
#6423
Lexus Champion
Hardly anybody cares. I don’t care, and I’m an enthusiast. I never determine when my engine is “in boost” or not, I just drive it and it feels powerful, smooth and great. You dig way deeper into the nuts and bolts of what an engine is doing than almost anybody else.
When I push the gas, I get a smooth wave of effortless power with very little throttle input. What the engine does to give me that means nothing to me.
As for 6+L engines, I have driven vehicles with them, and no vehicle I would ever buy would have one so comparing to them doesn’t make any sense. Same with a V12, never going to own a car with a V12.
All the people running around with turbo 4 cyls in their cars too are perfectly happy with their engines, many of them don't even know how many cylinders they have.
When I push the gas, I get a smooth wave of effortless power with very little throttle input. What the engine does to give me that means nothing to me.
As for 6+L engines, I have driven vehicles with them, and no vehicle I would ever buy would have one so comparing to them doesn’t make any sense. Same with a V12, never going to own a car with a V12.
All the people running around with turbo 4 cyls in their cars too are perfectly happy with their engines, many of them don't even know how many cylinders they have.
Every single person I have let drive both cars back to back with no pre-drive conditioning when asked afterword about power delivery smoothness mentioned the turbo engine was not as seamless when at very low input/speeds. It's simply not as flawlessly smooth at any RPM due to the boost threshold, if you tip in throttle like an average driver you would never know and that's perhaps why you have ever felt it.
As I have said many times I tend to drive full hammer down or very very lightly and the turbo engines struggle with that as I have said many times. When I'm not actually driving the car to ability I prefer to produce perfectly smooth and interconnected acceleration with no felt forces, I know exact shift points and micro manage throttle inputs to allow shifts to occur off power and the turbo engines just do not play well with smooth. They want to spool or are off boost and are too weak, you can't "swell" them up a few 100 RPMs gradually with speed or them come into power and it can be felt.
That annoyed me whenever I wasn't driving with intent, every thread I have about the 4.0 has that complaint. If you don't notice it great for you! I do and it bothers me so I picked an alternative engine with zero drawbacks other than city MPG and I don't care about that anyway.
You don't own, have never owned, and say you don't intend to own a engine of the sizes or configurations that I do so you are not qualified to comment on something you have no experience with.
I can 1:1:1 compare 3 engines of 550hp and similar TQ with two NA, two Super, and one turbo at will and 3 of them back to back in my garage if I feel like. You can't. The turbo engine has delay, dead spots, and a boost threshold.
The others do not.
Last edited by Striker223; 08-29-23 at 12:40 PM.
08-29-23, 12:41 PM
#6424
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
You guys take this argument/debate into PM or its own thread and drop it here please. Quickly getting into personal comments and running arguments again and I’m saving folks from getting booted or this thread closed
08-29-23, 01:54 PM
#6425
Lexus Test Driver
Me too, lol. Superchargers have no lag and that's ADDING to the 5.5, down downsizing it to 4.0L. My guess is the old NA 5.4 drives somewhat like this 5.5 I had in the R230 bc the torque is roughly the same. I didn't get to flog it but I had it for 2 seconds and after the one-two upshift at 5mph I nailed it and was shocked at the power, how fast it flew up the rev range.
also the 5.5 you drove in the SL550 is a considerably more technical engine than our M113 5.4... for one it's DOHC vs SOHC, and has continuously variable valve timing so yea you'll feel more response at basically any rpm and it'll rev nicer
08-29-23, 01:59 PM
#6426
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Thats one of the great things about 48V systems too, the hybrid battery power fills in down low when there is no boost from the turbos, which eliminates lag. I only drove an S580 which has that system briefly but as I shop for a replacement for my S560 I will drive it more extensively. Like I said though in the type of driving I do I do not feel any lag. Not saying there isn't lag, I'm just saying it doesn't make itself apparent in my driving.
08-29-23, 02:07 PM
#6427
Lexus Champion
the supercharger itself has no lag, but the pulley is on an electromagnetic clutch that can take a split second to engage if you were just driving gently... you hear a little chirp from the belt on the pulley and it's like whooppp someone just flipped the power switch! some people will swap the stock pulley for a fixed one, at the expense of the mpgs becoming even lower haha
also the 5.5 you drove in the SL550 is a considerably more technical engine than our M113 5.4... for one it's DOHC vs SOHC, and has continuously variable valve timing so yea you'll feel more response at basically any rpm and it'll rev nicer
also the 5.5 you drove in the SL550 is a considerably more technical engine than our M113 5.4... for one it's DOHC vs SOHC, and has continuously variable valve timing so yea you'll feel more response at basically any rpm and it'll rev nicer
M113 was a greattt engine. The fact that it holds up under Supercharged stress is testament to how solid it is. One of us (I forget who) has a beater ML500 with M113 and like 150k. A "beater Mercedes", I always find that funny.
And yes the NA 5.5 is much more advanced but I'd be much more weary. The simpler a MB engine the better, lmao.
08-29-23, 02:35 PM
#6428
Lexus Test Driver
It actually didn't rev or sound as nice now that I think about it. Starting it up didn't sound as good as my SL nor did the engine when I gunned it, at rest at least and for that brief pull.
M113 was a greattt engine. The fact that it holds up under Supercharged stress is testament to how solid it is. One of us (I forget who) has a beater ML500 with M113 and like 150k. A "beater Mercedes", I always find that funny.
And yes the NA 5.5 is much more advanced but I'd be much more weary. The simpler a MB engine the better, lmao.
M113 was a greattt engine. The fact that it holds up under Supercharged stress is testament to how solid it is. One of us (I forget who) has a beater ML500 with M113 and like 150k. A "beater Mercedes", I always find that funny.
And yes the NA 5.5 is much more advanced but I'd be much more weary. The simpler a MB engine the better, lmao.
also considering the short distance you said you drove it (and how you typically drive yours lol) i feel like the software is still in easy going mode on that SL550, drive aggressively for a few minutes in S and i'm sure it'll liven up the pedal feel haha
and i wanna say that's TangoRed, the M113 is a great beater candidate!
i'm generally not a fan of intentionally ruining a still working nice car but for this engine to have still been running at the end is crazy! rip S430
08-29-23, 05:33 PM
#6429
Lexus Champion
This R230 blew me away so the software wasn't in easy going mode. Granted it also will wind up faster because of the 7 speed versus 5 speed auto, but yes you can feel the extra grunt and it was more than I thought it would be. That car was in the late 4's 0-60, that's plennnnty fast enough. For me at least.
My R129 car just wouldn't eat second gear up like that off the line, not even close. That 5.5 still has impressive numbers today IMO, 382hp/391lb-ft.
Mine does adapt to your driving style but it has long legged gearing and I can only go so fast on city roads, but the gas feels different and not very lively unlike newer Mercedes or at least this one. Old Mercedes were known for that. You had to get to the click-down to get it all, not with that R230 I drove lol.
08-29-23, 05:41 PM
#6430
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I had a FB Reel of an Escalade V cold starting on a dealer floor I was going to post and I lost the link before I could lol
08-29-23, 05:55 PM
#6431
Lexus Champion
He hates GM and BOF SUVs in general yet asked me last week to tow a broken Porsche to a shop 3 hours away, I don't even think he's realized the irony there, but oh I'l be calling him out ;-).
08-29-23, 05:59 PM
#6432
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
It was so perfect, I was going to tag you and everything lol
08-29-23, 06:01 PM
#6433
Lexus Fanatic
Everyone, let’s all get along in this thread
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 08-29-23 at 07:54 PM.