2022 Cars - plastic fantastic
07-05-22, 06:53 AM
#16
Lexus Test Driver
So many great posts already.
Can I plz add, I'm not sure if they are making cars in cheaper quality but they sure are over priced for what we get so I call that the same thing. lol
And being carefull what we wish for, the added complexity will kill DIY repairs for the people who drive cars 2nd hand.
On my RX330 and also the RX400 hybrid at 18 years old, the electrical system is already complicated and outside scope for DIY for most people when needing to dive in deep so I can't imagine the new cars- probably insane and need an electrical degree to work on it.
PS- not a fan of plastic engine parts either unless it's a sensor or something.
Can I plz add, I'm not sure if they are making cars in cheaper quality but they sure are over priced for what we get so I call that the same thing. lol
And being carefull what we wish for, the added complexity will kill DIY repairs for the people who drive cars 2nd hand.
On my RX330 and also the RX400 hybrid at 18 years old, the electrical system is already complicated and outside scope for DIY for most people when needing to dive in deep so I can't imagine the new cars- probably insane and need an electrical degree to work on it.
PS- not a fan of plastic engine parts either unless it's a sensor or something.
Last edited by Margate330; 07-05-22 at 06:57 AM.
07-05-22, 07:30 AM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
If we take away that he prefers a 300k mi LS beater over a new car, he does have a point that from a mechanical perspective, the engine components (like valve covers - which are mostly plastic these days) are likely to be of lesser durability (some justify the decision as to reduce weight, but we all know it's mostly about cost).
Would a LS500 last 300 mi miles with just a few gasket leaks compared to the LS400 if you give it 20 years? I don't think it would.
Here is a interesting comparison of the current generation Camry with the previous generation. E.g. in the new there are a lot of plastic clip on parts in the engine bay without even any screws to hold them on, wheel liner material that is cardboard thin. So this just goes to prove that Toyota today makes no attempt to differentiate from other mainstream manufacturers now, creating a minimal viable product out to the market from a durability standpoint.
So without "overbuilding" a little, and every component engineered to last for a specific period of time, then the overall longevity of cars made in the last few years have effectively decreased. That decrease can be a few years to 10+ years. Also the more technology a car ships with, the shorter the life span of the car especially if the technology is integral to the drivability of the car.
Yes and no. Obviously a vehicle loses some of its new-car feel wth age, but, IMO (and I can remember when the first Accords were built, in the mid-1970s) the best Accords were built in the early 90s, just as with the Camry in the early-mid 90s. Some later Accords had transmission problems...and the latest Accords today have more features, but IMO are not comparable in solidness and build-quality to what was done in the 80s and 90s.
Have you sampled a Mercedes product built in the 1980s or earlier? They were like tanks, famous for being overbuilt, with jewel-like precision assembly. Arguably the best cars in the world at that time. That started to change in the 1990s, as Lexus and Infiniti debuted and started giving Mercedes some REAL competiton. The company cut costs to compete, and the result was noticeable in their cars.
Last edited by SW17LS; 07-05-22 at 07:50 AM.
07-05-22, 07:44 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
first, we need to recognize that overall cars TODAY are FAR more reliable than ever before. this is due TO build quality and precision, computer controlled everything, etc.
yes, lexus built the stunning LS400 but it's time to move on.
ok, but that's 40 years ago, those 'tanks' were very heavy, and gas was $1 a gallon. times change.
a manufacturer really only needs to build a vehicle to last the length of the warranty. sure there's 'reputation' points for building cars that last longer, but in an intensely competitive market, time to market, price, and features are #1. and many people who buy cars to last a decade buy them used anyway, which is of zero benefit to the manufacturer.
reducing cost and weight both matter, with strict fuel economy and emissions standards. it's ironic that weight concern has gone out the window with EVs which are probably typically 1000lbs heavier than a similar ice vehicle.
speculation. i wouldn't be surprised if it did, in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if there were LESS gasket leaks.
somehow they still sell what 15+ m in the u.s., so many think there's value.
true, which will drive the push to ev's which have almost nothing to 'go wrong'. ice vehicles today are INCREDIBLY reliable given how INCREDIBLY complex they are. but it's the end of this era.
yes, lexus built the stunning LS400 but it's time to move on.
So without "overbuilding" a little, and every component engineered to last for a specific period of time, then the overall longevity of cars made in the last few years have effectively decreased. That decrease can be a few years to 10+ years. Also the more technology a car ships with, the shorter the life span of the car especially if the technology is integral to the drivability of the car.
If we take away that he prefers a 300k mi LS beater over a new car, he does have a point that from a mechanical perspective, the engine components (like valve covers - which are mostly plastic these days) are likely to be of lesser durability (some justify the decision as to reduce weight, but we all know it's mostly about cost).
Would a LS500 last 300 mi miles with just a few gasket leaks compared to the LS400 if you give it 20 years? I don't think it would.
And being carefull what we wish for, the added complexity will kill DIY repairs for the people who drive cars 2nd hand.
07-05-22, 07:49 AM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
All very true. The argument about plastic vs metal, modern plastics are oftentimes just as strong as metal, so the argument that a plastic engine component may not be as strong as a metal component may not be true.
07-05-22, 09:48 AM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
yes, lexus built the stunning LS400 but it's time to move on.
ice vehicles today are INCREDIBLY reliable given how INCREDIBLY complex they are. but it's the end of this era.
07-05-22, 10:59 AM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Everything has a cost, an LS500 has WAY more technology and is much safer than an LS400, and those things have come at the cost of somewhat lower outright build quality. R&D Dollars are focused on more and different things than they were at that time. The LS500 still feels very high quality...my issues with it come from its design focus on sportiness vs comfort and space, not its quality.
The Model S is dramatically lower quality than the worst LS ever made, these issues has nothing to do with why the Model S outsells the LS.
This is overstated in many situations.
LS500 shames the LS badge IMO. Sales numbers back this up the LS is well on its way to being cancelled. For crying out loud the Model S sells 10x more than the LS how could Lexus let this happen?
Agreed, and with Lexus even at high mileage they are still viable to own unlike German luxury cars.
07-05-22, 12:29 PM
#22
Lexus Fanatic
This is overstated in many situations.
07-05-22, 01:30 PM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
Heck no it's incredibly understated people continue to buy "bargain" priced German cars and get completely hosed trying to keep them on the road
When I got my S560, I would have said there was no way I would keep it out of warranty, but honestly knowing what I now know I would confidently keep this for 100-150k miles, I would buy a warranty...but I would have done that with my LS460 too.
German cars are more expensive to service, and they are a little more exotic than a Lexus so just anybody can't work on them, or won't do so confidently, but the reliability is nowhere near as "scary" as we have been led to believe here in Lexus world. They are also quirkier and there are more variabilities amongst models and engines. For instance, BMW people know if they are going to keep a BMW get the I6 over the V8, in MB world they have issues with the SUVs built in the US, but the German made stuff is really strong. S Class, E Class, C Class, SL, etc etc are all very reliable.
Just look at the reliability rankings, the Germans are holding their own.
07-05-22, 01:43 PM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
German cars are more expensive to service, and they are a little more exotic than a Lexus so just anybody can't work on them, or won't do so confidently, but the reliability is nowhere near as "scary" as we have been led to believe here in Lexus world. They are also quirkier and there are more variabilities amongst models and engines. For instance, BMW people know if they are going to keep a BMW get the I6 over the V8, in MB world they have issues with the SUVs built in the US, but the German made stuff is really strong. S Class, E Class, C Class, SL, etc etc are all very reliable.
Just look at the reliability rankings, the Germans are holding their own.
Just look at the reliability rankings, the Germans are holding their own.
07-05-22, 01:45 PM
#25
Lexus Fanatic
As a German car owner myself now and now that I am participating in the Mercedes forums and have read many more posts on BMW forums as well as Audi forums, the reliability is not as different from Lexus as you have been led to believe. S Classes, for instance are just as reliable as a similar era LS, if not moreso (we're talking W221 and W222 models here vs LS460s). 7 Series are also very reliable save the issues BMW has with their V8 which are well documented, but 740s are very reliable, same with A8s.
07-05-22, 02:19 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
great post... in europe people think nothing of buying a used german car. yes, service/parts are expensive, it goes with it, but the cars themselves are typically not less reliable or maybe slightly less reliable. certainly if that 10 year old s-class air suspension gives out, it's gonna be spendy though... you're not buying a used camry. pay to play.
Current LS is a bad example it has not been very reliable. But in 10 years it is certain on average the cost of ownership for a Mercedes or BMW will be much higher than a Lexus. This has been proven over and over again.
The average cost of ownership will be higher because service is more expensive, but when it comes to outright reliability, meaning how often things break, they are not as different as you are saying they are when you compare like kind to like kind. Why do you think the current LS is "not very reliable"? Because its now as sophisticated as a German car.
What the LS460 showed us is when Lexus truly makes a car that has the engineering of a German car, it needs more specialized care...like a German car! The "magic sauce" was not that Lexus made more reliable cars than Mercedes or BMW, it was that their cars were less sophisticated and thus needed less care. The LS400 or LS430 compared to an S Class is worlds different. LS400/430 has no multilink front suspension, most dont have air suspension, no boosted powertrain, FAR less electronic features and capabilities its a very simple car. The LS460 brought German sophistication to the LS, all of a sudden we had high pressure fuel lines, direct injection, multilink suspension, adaptive dampers, electronically modulated brakes, WAY more features and technologies...and with those things came German style expensive problems even for Lexus. LS400s and LS430s didnt have $3,000 brake actuator failures like the LS460...because they didnt have electronic brake actuators, as an example. S Class does, and there are no such issues. Has for years. LS400 and LS430 didnt have $3,000 control arm failures like the LS460...because they didnt have multi-link suspensions....S Class does and has no such issues. Has for years.
So, if you want a really sophisticated car, you are going to have repairs and maintenance Lexus or German. Thats the point. An LS500 wont be much cheaper to maintain over 10 years than an S Class.
Last edited by SW17LS; 07-05-22 at 02:36 PM.
07-05-22, 04:39 PM
#27
Lexus Fanatic
07-05-22, 04:44 PM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
Porsche for instance is consistently now towards the top of most reliability and quality rankings, yet is the costliest to maintain. Why? Because dealer maintenance is EXTREMELY expensive.
What would be interesting is to see specifically is how much it costs to maintain an LS compared to an ES and how closely that LS cost mirrors an S Class. I think you would find it’s WAY more than an ES and pretty similar to an S Class.
Last edited by SW17LS; 07-05-22 at 04:57 PM.
07-05-22, 08:16 PM
#29
Lexus Champion
I don't disagree.
You're buying into what you have always been told without actually doing some research into this. As a German car owner myself now and now that I am participating in the Mercedes forums and have read many more posts on BMW forums as well as Audi forums, the reliability is not as different from Lexus as you have been led to believe. S Classes, for instance are just as reliable as a similar era LS, if not moreso (we're talking W221 and W222 models here vs LS460s). 7 Series are also very reliable save the issues BMW has with their V8 which are well documented, but 740s are very reliable, same with A8s.
When I got my S560, I would have said there was no way I would keep it out of warranty, but honestly knowing what I now know I would confidently keep this for 100-150k miles, I would buy a warranty...but I would have done that with my LS460 too.
German cars are more expensive to service, and they are a little more exotic than a Lexus so just anybody can't work on them, or won't do so confidently, but the reliability is nowhere near as "scary" as we have been led to believe here in Lexus world. They are also quirkier and there are more variabilities amongst models and engines. For instance, BMW people know if they are going to keep a BMW get the I6 over the V8, in MB world they have issues with the SUVs built in the US, but the German made stuff is really strong. S Class, E Class, C Class, SL, etc etc are all very reliable.
Just look at the reliability rankings, the Germans are holding their own.
You're buying into what you have always been told without actually doing some research into this. As a German car owner myself now and now that I am participating in the Mercedes forums and have read many more posts on BMW forums as well as Audi forums, the reliability is not as different from Lexus as you have been led to believe. S Classes, for instance are just as reliable as a similar era LS, if not moreso (we're talking W221 and W222 models here vs LS460s). 7 Series are also very reliable save the issues BMW has with their V8 which are well documented, but 740s are very reliable, same with A8s.
When I got my S560, I would have said there was no way I would keep it out of warranty, but honestly knowing what I now know I would confidently keep this for 100-150k miles, I would buy a warranty...but I would have done that with my LS460 too.
German cars are more expensive to service, and they are a little more exotic than a Lexus so just anybody can't work on them, or won't do so confidently, but the reliability is nowhere near as "scary" as we have been led to believe here in Lexus world. They are also quirkier and there are more variabilities amongst models and engines. For instance, BMW people know if they are going to keep a BMW get the I6 over the V8, in MB world they have issues with the SUVs built in the US, but the German made stuff is really strong. S Class, E Class, C Class, SL, etc etc are all very reliable.
Just look at the reliability rankings, the Germans are holding their own.
07-05-22, 08:24 PM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
All true but on the lower end god help you....top end stuff from the Germans is very nice and surprisingly reliable for what it is (W220 and V8 BMWs excluded and obvious issues like the Mercedes' crank sprocket etc) and if you avoid the known problems you will be fine. The LS460 can actually run you up a worse bill than a 221/222 or D4 EASILY if all the known issues happen at once. Arms, brake actuator, and oil usage can total out a 460