2022 Cars - plastic fantastic
07-05-22 | 09:25 PM
#31
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 12,172
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From: Ohio
Same with a 10 year old LS air suspension. In fact, Mercedes air struts can actually be rebuilt because they are higher quality than what Lexus uses, so it may be MORE expensive on the Lexus. Difference is EVERY S Class has air suspension because its better, not every LS does because its cheaper.
You're just wrong. Sorry lol
As for it costing more...its better. Better, higher performance things cost more, and need more specialized care. Sure a FWD Avalon with a Lexus badge will cost very little to maintain, but it offers very little in terms of performance or sophistication for someone who loves great cars.
The average cost of ownership will be higher because service is more expensive, but when it comes to outright reliability, meaning how often things break, they are not as different as you are saying they are when you compare like kind to like kind. Why do you think the current LS is "not very reliable"? Because its now as sophisticated as a German car.
What the LS460 showed us is when Lexus truly makes a car that has the engineering of a German car, it needs more specialized care...like a German car! The "magic sauce" was not that Lexus made more reliable cars than Mercedes or BMW, it was that their cars were less sophisticated and thus needed less care. The LS400 or LS430 compared to an S Class is worlds different. LS400/430 has no multilink front suspension, most dont have air suspension, no boosted powertrain, FAR less electronic features and capabilities its a very simple car. The LS460 brought German sophistication to the LS, all of a sudden we had high pressure fuel lines, direct injection, multilink suspension, adaptive dampers, electronically modulated brakes, WAY more features and technologies...and with those things came German style expensive problems even for Lexus. LS400s and LS430s didnt have $3,000 brake actuator failures like the LS460...because they didnt have electronic brake actuators, as an example. S Class does, and there are no such issues. Has for years. LS400 and LS430 didnt have $3,000 control arm failures like the LS460...because they didnt have multi-link suspensions....S Class does and has no such issues. Has for years.
So, if you want a really sophisticated car, you are going to have repairs and maintenance Lexus or German. Thats the point. An LS500 wont be much cheaper to maintain over 10 years than an S Class.
You're just wrong. Sorry lol
As for it costing more...its better. Better, higher performance things cost more, and need more specialized care. Sure a FWD Avalon with a Lexus badge will cost very little to maintain, but it offers very little in terms of performance or sophistication for someone who loves great cars.
The average cost of ownership will be higher because service is more expensive, but when it comes to outright reliability, meaning how often things break, they are not as different as you are saying they are when you compare like kind to like kind. Why do you think the current LS is "not very reliable"? Because its now as sophisticated as a German car.
What the LS460 showed us is when Lexus truly makes a car that has the engineering of a German car, it needs more specialized care...like a German car! The "magic sauce" was not that Lexus made more reliable cars than Mercedes or BMW, it was that their cars were less sophisticated and thus needed less care. The LS400 or LS430 compared to an S Class is worlds different. LS400/430 has no multilink front suspension, most dont have air suspension, no boosted powertrain, FAR less electronic features and capabilities its a very simple car. The LS460 brought German sophistication to the LS, all of a sudden we had high pressure fuel lines, direct injection, multilink suspension, adaptive dampers, electronically modulated brakes, WAY more features and technologies...and with those things came German style expensive problems even for Lexus. LS400s and LS430s didnt have $3,000 brake actuator failures like the LS460...because they didnt have electronic brake actuators, as an example. S Class does, and there are no such issues. Has for years. LS400 and LS430 didnt have $3,000 control arm failures like the LS460...because they didnt have multi-link suspensions....S Class does and has no such issues. Has for years.
So, if you want a really sophisticated car, you are going to have repairs and maintenance Lexus or German. Thats the point. An LS500 wont be much cheaper to maintain over 10 years than an S Class.
I would never pick a LS500 over ANY German hot-V flagship, one minute under one and in the engine bay made that car a hard no from me. Engine out is all I saw when looking at what major service would require.
I see NO cost to own differences between the 430/460/D4s I own and the German actually has cheaper parts if we factor in my discounts.
ALL multi link suspension will wear out around 100k, it's just the nature of how they work and how much is demanded of the bushing in each arm. Who cares? It's fast and easy to change them out on German cars and the LSs are not too bad themselves, not as easy but close enough.
Lexus coasts on its rep of reliability because of the rest of the lineup being VERY simple cars and even the 430 is simple. I always called it my giant Camry on here for a reason.....
Last edited by Striker223; 07-06-22 at 09:05 PM.
07-05-22 | 09:29 PM
#32
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 12,172
Likes: 1,277
From: Ohio
Did you read my post? I explained why that is. The list in that article can also go from a “least complex to most complex” and “least expensive dealer service rates to most expensive”. The cost to maintain is not necessarily an indicator of reliability. The average Mercedes or Audi or BMW etc is more complex and sophisticated than the average Lexus, so of course costs are higher.
Porsche for instance is consistently now towards the top of most reliability and quality rankings, yet is the costliest to maintain. Why? Because dealer maintenance is EXTREMELY expensive.
What would be interesting is to see specifically is how much it costs to maintain an LS compared to an ES and how closely that LS cost mirrors an S Class. I think you would find it’s WAY more than an ES and pretty similar to an S Class.
Porsche for instance is consistently now towards the top of most reliability and quality rankings, yet is the costliest to maintain. Why? Because dealer maintenance is EXTREMELY expensive.
What would be interesting is to see specifically is how much it costs to maintain an LS compared to an ES and how closely that LS cost mirrors an S Class. I think you would find it’s WAY more than an ES and pretty similar to an S Class.
Parts cost alone is less than 1/2 of an LS
07-05-22 | 09:45 PM
#33
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 58,347
Likes: 2,790
From: Maryland
Yep, totally on all of it! If you find a good independent shop, that takes the dealer cost difference out of it and what the net result is...they basically cost the same to maintain.
I know a guy that buys a CPO S Class at 30k miles, and drives it to 150k miles and then trades it on another CPO one with 30k miles. He does that about every 5 years. I asked him when I was considering going to MB from Lexus how big a deal it was and he said no big deal and he services them at the dealer out of ease. Never replaced an air strut, typically has to replace suspension links and thats a few thousand bucks, and otherwise its just oil changes, brakes and tires.
I know a guy that buys a CPO S Class at 30k miles, and drives it to 150k miles and then trades it on another CPO one with 30k miles. He does that about every 5 years. I asked him when I was considering going to MB from Lexus how big a deal it was and he said no big deal and he services them at the dealer out of ease. Never replaced an air strut, typically has to replace suspension links and thats a few thousand bucks, and otherwise its just oil changes, brakes and tires.
Last edited by SW17LS; 07-05-22 at 09:49 PM.
07-05-22 | 10:35 PM
#34
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 12,172
Likes: 1,277
From: Ohio
Yep, totally on all of it! If you find a good independent shop, that takes the dealer cost difference out of it and what the net result is...they basically cost the same to maintain.
I know a guy that buys a CPO S Class at 30k miles, and drives it to 150k miles and then trades it on another CPO one with 30k miles. He does that about every 5 years. I asked him when I was considering going to MB from Lexus how big a deal it was and he said no big deal and he services them at the dealer out of ease. Never replaced an air strut, typically has to replace suspension links and thats a few thousand bucks, and otherwise its just oil changes, brakes and tires.
I know a guy that buys a CPO S Class at 30k miles, and drives it to 150k miles and then trades it on another CPO one with 30k miles. He does that about every 5 years. I asked him when I was considering going to MB from Lexus how big a deal it was and he said no big deal and he services them at the dealer out of ease. Never replaced an air strut, typically has to replace suspension links and thats a few thousand bucks, and otherwise its just oil changes, brakes and tires.
The LS500 still has air as an option.....this drives parts cost up and the packaging gets tighter. If the car is air only then packaging is designed for that to be "normal" not "eh, it fits I guess. Close enough" like on certain cars it's an option on. My 430 had totally blown out shocks with zero rebound remaining when I bought it, but since the car was held up 99.9% of people wouldn't know there is an issue. My 460 has weak rear shocks at 135k miles and again, most won't be able to tell but I can tell the car doesn't take a set well and is a little touchy out back over broken pavement at 100+ mph. I'm going to replace all 4 with some nice aftermarket units that are more handing focused when I install the ISF LSD I have but the fact is that they are not working correctly.
Non-air simply hides failures better and can be "driven broken" unlike air cars, if I had an air car I couldn't drive it right now. German cars in general are less okay with being driven "broken" than other brands, best example is a US truck being the poster child of a car that can be driven with HORRIBLE levels of damage to multiple systems for an unreasonably long time. Lexus also is fantastic at simply continuing to work even if a lot of stuff is outside of spec.
Last edited by Striker223; 07-05-22 at 11:34 PM.
07-05-22 | 10:44 PM
#35
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 58,347
Likes: 2,790
From: Maryland
Non-air simply hides failures better and can be "driven broken" unlike air cars, if I had an air car I couldn't drive it right now. German cars in general are less okay with being driven "broken" than other brands, best example is a US truck being the poster child of a car that can be driven with HORRIBLE levels of damage to multiple systems for an unreasonably long time. Lexus also is fantastic at simply continuing to work even if a lot of stuff is outside of spec.
My dad had a 1990 Lincoln Continental that suffered a rear air suspension failure while he was out to lunch with customers. He gave the car to a valet and it was fine, and it came back dragging the rear bumper. Talk about embarrassing!
07-05-22 | 11:32 PM
#36
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 12,172
Likes: 1,277
From: Ohio
Yep, all true and air struts don't "wear out" the way traditional struts do, they either work, or they don't. When they stop working, you'll know lol
My dad had a 1990 Lincoln Continental that suffered a rear air suspension failure while he was out to lunch with customers. He gave the car to a valet and it was fine, and it came back dragging the rear bumper. Talk about embarrassing!
My dad had a 1990 Lincoln Continental that suffered a rear air suspension failure while he was out to lunch with customers. He gave the car to a valet and it was fine, and it came back dragging the rear bumper. Talk about embarrassing!
That must have really sucked, air cars are indeed an on/off switch in most cases. For better or for worse!
07-05-22 | 11:37 PM
#37
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 12,172
Likes: 1,277
From: Ohio
I would get rid of it at that point too, my cars don't leak and they work as they are supposed to and if I can't make it that way it will go away. If I can't get parts or it becomes insanity to perform the fix then that's it for that car unless it's my 03....it is the only one that gets an emotion based exception.
07-06-22 | 08:20 AM
#38
Pole Position
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,486
Likes: 166
From: NY
You have to see it from his unique perspective too, he's a mechanic and an older car to him is no big deal. FWIW though, for his personal cars he has a Maserati Levante, and he's hand Land Rovers and modern Mercedes (a few years old), so his money isn't where his mouth is.
07-06-22 | 11:55 AM
#40
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 58,347
Likes: 2,790
From: Maryland
He's not the avg owner. He has the means (financially) and know how to fix cars. A lot of people can financially afford and maintain those cars, but not many can also fix it cheaply and easily like he can. And he has old cars like a 2nd Gen RAV4 that he bought for his daughter and etc.
07-06-22 | 12:32 PM
#41
Super Moderator
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8,170
Likes: 340
From: IL
Yep, the E46 I had for 12 years and 158k miles was the most reliable car I've ever been exposed to. The E90 that replaced it 11 years ago has been been just as good, IF I exclude the stupid emissions system that regulations saddled it with. Our Q7 is only 4 years old, but has been utterly trouble-free.
07-06-22 | 05:08 PM
#42
Whenever I see one of these, it's usually all dusty from sitting for months, and it usually has a faded "FOR SALE" sign in the window, asking for $1,200-1,500 at least before the great inflation.
07-06-22 | 06:23 PM
#43
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 12,172
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From: Ohio
07-06-22 | 07:12 PM
#44
For a very good reason, a pair of air struts is $950 on the absolute lowest end, air controller block is $350, engine fan is $1000, and the other likely issues are another $1500.....just for the actual parts. If I desperately needed a cheap car that is a V8 RWD like that I would get a crown Vic
07-06-22 | 08:15 PM
#45
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 12,172
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From: Ohio
Crown Vic is just not in the same class as the S class or the LS, but it can take care more abuse and keep going. Cars like these need to be respected, unfortunately a lot of people buy them on the used market just for the name, and never properly maintain them, at which point they turn into junkers and drive worse than a comparable Crown Vic.
Many people who get the cheap high end cars don't respect them at all and treat it like a corolla.