Motorola

The only way the ES will switch to RWD or stay below $60K for the upcoming 370 HP version is in dreams lol.

A loaded ES costs basically the same as a base model 4-cylinder AWD G80. The ES in its current form is no competitor to the G80 or any German equivalent.

SW17LS

The G80 is all of those things too. The reason it sells so well compared to the G80 is model and brand loyalty. Being a car guy and recognizing what makes the G80 better, no way I would buy an ES over one. But, most people don't care about that stuff.

If you like the ES, there is no reason you wouldn't love the G80.

Motorola

Using Genesis sales in general is a pretty low bar when it's been widely known that they have no dealer network, and a limited inventory as a result. There's some 300 2022-23 G80's on sale in the U.S. compared to the 1,000 5-Series and 1,900 ES's.

Compare the ES to a 5 Series and E-Class and see how it fares- I doubt it'll sell anywhere near their numbers once it becomes a $60-70K vehicle with the upcoming generation.

Toys4RJill

You really are comparing the wrong cars. G80 and ES are not really comparable.

SW17LS

I don't agree, a well optioned ES really is in the same price category as a G80, the RWD G80 starts at $49k, the ES starts at $42,000. You can have a well optioned ES that competes with a G80.

Toys4RJill

But the power trains are completely different. Turbos vs naturally aspirated. Then you have Lexes with hybrids. And the fact that they are not the same FWD/RWD. Even the awd systems are very different Very different still. A G80 should be compared to a E, 5 or A6.

Motorola

I'm gonna have to agree with Jill on this one. Comparing a base model G80 to a very well-optioned ES doesn't really make much sense. A base G80 is nicer than a base 5 or E-Class, but it's still not going to be comparable in features to a well-equipped ES.

SW17LS

Thats just because the ES’ powertrain is old. Next gen ES will have a turbo 4 same as the G80 and like the RX does now.

The ES is a car that many people buy because they want the room of a 5 or E Class but don’t want to spend that money, like was the case with me. The G80 brings it closer.

The trade off is the better platform. I would rather have the better platform than a few features. Not everybody is that way but I’m just saying for me.

Motorola

I don't disagree, but what you said could also apply to the German vehicles vs. the ES. The price gap will be even further, but you'll also get a better platform with the Germans vs. the ES.

It is worth noting that the G80 itself takes a bit from the ES value sized formula by being a larger car in its segment at a lower price. Most vehicles in this class are about 100 cubic feet, the G80 is ~107 and you definitely feel it sitting inside. It has the same wheelbase as the W222 SWB S-Class. The G80 is essentially a full-size sold at a midsize price. The ES is a midsize sold at a compact price.

SW17LS

The price delta is so big between the Germans and the ES that it’s not something most buyers could stretch to do.

Motorola

An ES tops out at $55K, an ES buyer could theoretically get a base model 5 or A6 at that price. Slap AWD on a base G80 and you're also at $54K. Of course most ES buyers wouldn't think of it like that, hence why the GS also died at the hands of the ES.

JDR76

We're admittedly a bit off topic, but I'll add an anecdotal story about my neighbor here.

My neighbor, back in 2019 (note: when GS was still available) was searching for a new car. He went to the local Lexus dealer and asked to see a mid-sized sedan in the $50-55K range. The salesman never mentioned the GS, but walked him over to a line of ES350s, so he test drove one of those. He then went to the Genesis dealer and asked the same question - show me your mid-sized sedan in the $50-55k range, so they showed him an AWD G80.

He bought the G80 because he liked the AWD aspect. He absolutely would have considered the AWD GS, but the salesman never mentioned it, so he figured it wasn't available (but it was).

SW17LS

A $55k G80 is much better equipped than an entry level 5 or A6.

The point is, they COULD put the ES in the GA-L architecture and appeal to both sets of buyers. Without the Avalon, that may make more financial sense.

Motorola

It is, but it's nowhere near the features of a $55K ES.

GA-L apparently has many packaging issues, hence why the LS500 is as tiny inside as it is despite how huge it is on the outside. I can see it working on a SWB version GS-type vehicle, but there's no way that RWD platform can compete with GA-K when it comes to interior packaging and be as spacious as an ES.

SW17LS

The LS500 is front mid engined, thats why its so small inside, they could use the GA-L architecture in a front engined configuration and it would work fine. They set out to make the LS500 exactly the way it is.

What features does a $55k ES have that a $55k G80 wouldn't have? I can't think of any. Remember Genesis cars are pretty much loaded. ES is not feature rich. $57k is an Advance package AWD G80 with panoramic roof, Lexicon audio,