2023 Lexus ES Gets a Few Updates In Europe
09-06-22, 03:29 PM
#91
I honestly don't think the LS will live to see another generation given how its sales fell off a cliff after becoming the LS500, and the ES will only further cannibalize it the more upmarket it goes. The LS will always be a better car than the ES, but like the GS, for most Lexus buyers that extra bit of superiority isn't something they care to pay for over an ES.
To get an idea on the price of the next ES with the electrified turbo 4-cylinders, I looked up the Volvo S90 Recharge which has a similar powertrain setup, and it's a $70K vehicle. The ES in its top form will probably fall right into that same price bracket.
To get an idea on the price of the next ES with the electrified turbo 4-cylinders, I looked up the Volvo S90 Recharge which has a similar powertrain setup, and it's a $70K vehicle. The ES in its top form will probably fall right into that same price bracket.
You hit on a number of very interesting topics here... this will be a long post lol
I absolutely agree that Toyota will push the ES as a more luxurious version of that Crown... but this also means making the ES a far more expensive vehicle than it currently is. The Crown's powertrains are a tier above the current ES in power, and I suspect that the Crown will compete against vehicles from other mainstream brands with similar performance like the VW Arteon and Kia Stinger, which are $50,000 cars in top form. The Avalon topped out at just below $50K before its demise, the Crown will be even more expensive than that because of its more powerful engines and AWD.
Meanwhile, the ES in its current form tops out at $55K, a new version with AWD and the top-of-the-line Crown engines will push it well past the $60K realm alongside the 6-cylinder BMW 5 Series and Mercedes E-Class, or at the every least the Volvo S90. The current ES is a very successful car because of its value proposition, offering midsize to fullsize interior space and ride comfort for the price of a compact German sedan like the 3 Series. It's such a good formula that it basically cannibalized the GS to death and is starting to do the same with the LS500, which has an even smaller interior than the current ES.
With the next ES, that value proposition goes out the window, and the ES will have to, for the very first time, compete with the 5 Series and E-Class size-for-size and dollar-for-dollar like what Genesis is doing with the G80. The RX is making a similar move upmarket with its new powertrains, but because it's a crossover, there's much less risk in pushing it upmarket. The RX could hypothetically lose half its customer base with a price hike, but even that is still enough for it to match or even outsell the X5 and GLE. But the ES, being a sedan, currently sells less than a quarter the volume of the RX. It won't have the same sales guarantee like the RX, especially if it's directly cross-shopped with a similarly priced 5 Series or E-Class, or the cheaper Crown.
You bought the ES at a good time, just before it lost its value proposition (and V6).
Honestly though, if Lexus is going to charge $60K+ for a sedan, they should have just rebadged the other RWD Crown sedan as the new Lexus GS (which it originally was!) and killed off the ES. But that's just wishful thinking lol.
I absolutely agree that Toyota will push the ES as a more luxurious version of that Crown... but this also means making the ES a far more expensive vehicle than it currently is. The Crown's powertrains are a tier above the current ES in power, and I suspect that the Crown will compete against vehicles from other mainstream brands with similar performance like the VW Arteon and Kia Stinger, which are $50,000 cars in top form. The Avalon topped out at just below $50K before its demise, the Crown will be even more expensive than that because of its more powerful engines and AWD.
Meanwhile, the ES in its current form tops out at $55K, a new version with AWD and the top-of-the-line Crown engines will push it well past the $60K realm alongside the 6-cylinder BMW 5 Series and Mercedes E-Class, or at the every least the Volvo S90. The current ES is a very successful car because of its value proposition, offering midsize to fullsize interior space and ride comfort for the price of a compact German sedan like the 3 Series. It's such a good formula that it basically cannibalized the GS to death and is starting to do the same with the LS500, which has an even smaller interior than the current ES.
With the next ES, that value proposition goes out the window, and the ES will have to, for the very first time, compete with the 5 Series and E-Class size-for-size and dollar-for-dollar like what Genesis is doing with the G80. The RX is making a similar move upmarket with its new powertrains, but because it's a crossover, there's much less risk in pushing it upmarket. The RX could hypothetically lose half its customer base with a price hike, but even that is still enough for it to match or even outsell the X5 and GLE. But the ES, being a sedan, currently sells less than a quarter the volume of the RX. It won't have the same sales guarantee like the RX, especially if it's directly cross-shopped with a similarly priced 5 Series or E-Class, or the cheaper Crown.
You bought the ES at a good time, just before it lost its value proposition (and V6).
Honestly though, if Lexus is going to charge $60K+ for a sedan, they should have just rebadged the other RWD Crown sedan as the new Lexus GS (which it originally was!) and killed off the ES. But that's just wishful thinking lol.
09-06-22, 03:41 PM
#92
I agree they DON'T cross shop them, but my point is if they are spending over $50,000 on a highly optioned ES, they should because the G80 is a better car for that money. The ES is like a Camry or Accord or CRV or whatever people just buy the same car over and over again and never look outside of their box. If they would go drive a G80, I think they would have a hard time paying the same money for an ES350.
Like I said, the ES is a compelling car when the price is in the $40ks, in the $50ks not so much.
09-06-22, 03:56 PM
#93
Lexus Fanatic
Those days are long gone man. How much do you think an Accord 2.0 goes these days? A friend of mine was looking into buying one of these for his son and dealer wants 47k.
At $47k, buying an Accord over an ES spec'ed to $47k is as silly as buying a $55k ES over a $56k G80...
09-06-22, 05:17 PM
#94
The Genesis GV80 and Acura MDX both currently top at ~$75K, Lexus considers itself a more prestigious brand than both and will charge more where they can with the RX500h, putting it directly in line with the 6-cylinder X5 and GLE in price. As vehicles at similar prices in the same segments, people absolutely will cross-shop them, unless they are diehard Lexus loyalists who have zero awareness of any other car brands.
Lexus wants to be a higher-volume Volvo.
09-06-22, 07:27 PM
#95
I traded out of an AWD car, and I miss it. I agree that "Cushion extenders and a surround view camera aren't making me choose a FWD car with macpherson struts over a proper RWD layout car with a multi-link suspension." But that's not the whole comparison. At this price, I was choosing between a car with tremendous reliability, fine leather and a creamy V6 versus a car with below-average reliability, below-average dealer experience, a somewhat mediocre Four and vinyl seats.
Add in the very few but sobering owners who've had the irreparable Hyundai/Genesis ABS fire problem burn their house down, and it really was a no-brainer for me, just not in the direction you think.
You can hoot at this opinion and dismiss it as loudly as you like, but it's how one customer actually decided where to spend his money.
09-06-22, 07:43 PM
#96
I just bought a $54k ES. And I'm not the only one.
I traded out of an AWD car, and I miss it. I agree that "Cushion extenders and a surround view camera aren't making me choose a FWD car with macpherson struts over a proper RWD layout car with a multi-link suspension." But that's not the whole comparison. At this price, I was choosing between a car with tremendous reliability, fine leather and a creamy V6 versus a car with below-average reliability, below-average dealer experience, a somewhat mediocre Four and vinyl seats.
Add in the very few but sobering owners who've had the irreparable Hyundai/Genesis ABS fire problem burn their house down, and it really was a no-brainer for me, just not in the direction you think.
You can hoot at this opinion and dismiss it as loudly as you like, but it's how one customer actually decided where to spend his money.
I traded out of an AWD car, and I miss it. I agree that "Cushion extenders and a surround view camera aren't making me choose a FWD car with macpherson struts over a proper RWD layout car with a multi-link suspension." But that's not the whole comparison. At this price, I was choosing between a car with tremendous reliability, fine leather and a creamy V6 versus a car with below-average reliability, below-average dealer experience, a somewhat mediocre Four and vinyl seats.
Add in the very few but sobering owners who've had the irreparable Hyundai/Genesis ABS fire problem burn their house down, and it really was a no-brainer for me, just not in the direction you think.
You can hoot at this opinion and dismiss it as loudly as you like, but it's how one customer actually decided where to spend his money.
The last G80 was comparable to the ES in every way, including price. Came with more features, drove better, had real leather, etc. Was bigger inside than an ES too. And it essentially cost the same. The only excuse anyone had for choosing an ES over that gen G80 is because of badge and dealer network. Those two issues may apply to the current G80, but as a vehicle it's in a completely different league that the ES wishes it could be in.
09-06-22, 08:02 PM
#97
Wrong vehicle. The G80 that was recalled for the ABS module was the last generation that started out as the Hyundai Genesis. Which was known for being a very reliable vehicle. Nice exaggeration with "burn the house down" by the way, a grand total of two fires took place from the 95K vehicles recalled.
The last G80 was comparable to the ES in every way, including price. Came with more features, drove better, had real leather, etc. Was bigger inside than an ES too. And it essentially cost the same. The only excuse anyone had for choosing an ES over that gen G80 is because of badge and dealer network. Those two issues may apply to the current G80, but as a vehicle it's in a completely different league that the ES wishes it could be in.
The last G80 was comparable to the ES in every way, including price. Came with more features, drove better, had real leather, etc. Was bigger inside than an ES too. And it essentially cost the same. The only excuse anyone had for choosing an ES over that gen G80 is because of badge and dealer network. Those two issues may apply to the current G80, but as a vehicle it's in a completely different league that the ES wishes it could be in.
The current G80 may not have the same catastrophic problem that its stablemates hed, but it's had plenty of other ones. Check the CR survey numbers -- I did BEFORE I bought -- and you'll see, as I did, that the last G80 was quite reliable as you say, but the current one simply is not.
For the record, I didn't desire the last-gen ES, nor the current one before there was a way to bypass the touchpad. I tried to get excited about the previous-gen G80, but certain details stopped me -- fake wood on all but top trims, an unconscionably shabby one-piece plastic gas filler door certain to break during long-term ownership (I'm not picking nits with that one; I actually have posted about it before), painfully derivative styling of certain interior elements like the clock. These are small and subjective things, but in this class and at this price, you have to love it, and I couldn't.
I am not blind. I agree that the new G80 is a deluxe and beautiful car, and exactly as you say, it is in a higher league than the ES. But equipped as such, it is also priced in a higher league. As such, comparing the G80 to the ES is just like comparing the 5, E and A6 to the ES -- it becomes a price/reliability/durability vs luxury/featues comparison. The stripper G80 is not the one you're describing as too good for ES comparisons, but as you agreed above, it is the only one you can get for loaded-ES money. For the less patrician among us, like myself, that can matter.
Last edited by LexFinally; 09-06-22 at 08:08 PM.
09-06-22, 08:18 PM
#98
The last G80 was comparable to the ES in most ways, including price. When the car is 10 years old and you need a dashboard part or a window pane, not wanting to wait for the parts to arrive on the slow boat from Korea is not an "excuse," it's a reason that you don't personally care about.
The current G80 may not have the same catastrophic problem that its stablemates hed, but it's had plenty of other ones. Check the CR survey numbers -- I did BEFORE I bought -- and you'll see, as I did, that the last G80 was quite reliable as you say, but the current one simply is not.
I am not blind. I agree that the new G80 is a deluxe and beautiful car, and exactly as you say, it is in a higher league than the ES. But equipped as such, it is also priced in a higher league. As such, comparing the G80 to the ES is just like comparing the 5, E and A6 to the ES -- it becomes a price and reliability/durability vs luxury/featues comparison. The stripper G80 is not the one you're describing as too good for ES comparisons, but as you agreed above, it is the only one you can get for loaded-ES money. For the less patrician among us, like myself, that can matter.
The current G80 may not have the same catastrophic problem that its stablemates hed, but it's had plenty of other ones. Check the CR survey numbers -- I did BEFORE I bought -- and you'll see, as I did, that the last G80 was quite reliable as you say, but the current one simply is not.
I am not blind. I agree that the new G80 is a deluxe and beautiful car, and exactly as you say, it is in a higher league than the ES. But equipped as such, it is also priced in a higher league. As such, comparing the G80 to the ES is just like comparing the 5, E and A6 to the ES -- it becomes a price and reliability/durability vs luxury/featues comparison. The stripper G80 is not the one you're describing as too good for ES comparisons, but as you agreed above, it is the only one you can get for loaded-ES money. For the less patrician among us, like myself, that can matter.
I agree with pretty much everything else you wrote, the current ES still gives you more of what matters to most buyers than an equivalently priced current generation G80. The last G80 really was an incredible bargain, $60K loaded for a naturally aspirated V8 AWD near-fullsize luxury sedan. The only other V8 sedan that came close to that value from back then was the Charger/300, but in RWD only and with rubbish plastic interiors.
Last edited by Motorola; 09-06-22 at 08:21 PM.
09-06-22, 08:46 PM
#99
Lexus Fanatic
I just bought a $54k ES. And I'm not the only one.
I traded out of an AWD car, and I miss it. I agree that "Cushion extenders and a surround view camera aren't making me choose a FWD car with macpherson struts over a proper RWD layout car with a multi-link suspension." But that's not the whole comparison. At this price, I was choosing between a car with tremendous reliability, fine leather and a creamy V6 versus a car with below-average reliability, below-average dealer experience, a somewhat mediocre Four and vinyl seats.
Add in the very few but sobering owners who've had the irreparable Hyundai/Genesis ABS fire problem burn their house down, and it really was a no-brainer for me, just not in the direction you think.
You can hoot at this opinion and dismiss it as loudly as you like, but it's how one customer actually decided where to spend his money.
I traded out of an AWD car, and I miss it. I agree that "Cushion extenders and a surround view camera aren't making me choose a FWD car with macpherson struts over a proper RWD layout car with a multi-link suspension." But that's not the whole comparison. At this price, I was choosing between a car with tremendous reliability, fine leather and a creamy V6 versus a car with below-average reliability, below-average dealer experience, a somewhat mediocre Four and vinyl seats.
Add in the very few but sobering owners who've had the irreparable Hyundai/Genesis ABS fire problem burn their house down, and it really was a no-brainer for me, just not in the direction you think.
You can hoot at this opinion and dismiss it as loudly as you like, but it's how one customer actually decided where to spend his money.
That reliability and reputation is all Lexus really has going for it today unfortunately. It’s not enough to keep me with the brand anymore, not when I’m only keeping cars 3-4 years. I’d like to see them get back to offering more substance along with that reputation.
09-07-22, 05:37 AM
#100
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
you drive a mercedes s-class so just about everything else is going to seem 'eh'. i agree lexus has not done anywhere near enough to keep up with the times let alone be ahead. the new RX is a decent product. the LS is a big problem. the new lx just isn't enough. the gx is ancient. the nx/ux refreshes should help them some. the ES has had enough refreshes that it will continue to appeal to those who it has always appealed to, for now at least.as an LC500 owner, i don't expect to see it in production much longer, but who knows. the future is electric, and lexus is just way behind in one sense, but then many other luxury brands (cadillac, lincoln, acura, infiniti, etc) have yet to actually deliver EVs too. but with genesis moving in, mb/audi/bmw offering them now, i'm sure there's a sense of urgency inside lexus at this time, especially in hot markets like california.
09-07-22, 06:35 AM
#101
Lexus Fanatic
it's easy to get spoiled. you drive a mercedes s-class so just about everything else is going to seem 'eh'. i agree lexus has not done anywhere near enough to keep up with the times let alone be ahead. the new RX is a decent product. the LS is a big problem. the new lx just isn't enough. the gx is ancient. the nx/ux refreshes should help them some. the ES has had enough refreshes that it will continue to appeal to those who it has always appealed to, for now at least.
as an LC500 owner, i don't expect to see it in production much longer, but who knows. the future is electric, and lexus is just way behind in one sense, but then many other luxury brands (cadillac, lincoln, acura, infiniti, etc) have yet to actually deliver EVs too. but with genesis moving in, mb/audi/bmw offering them now, i'm sure there's a sense of urgency inside lexus at this time, especially in hot markets like california.
you drive a mercedes s-class so just about everything else is going to seem 'eh'. i agree lexus has not done anywhere near enough to keep up with the times let alone be ahead. the new RX is a decent product. the LS is a big problem. the new lx just isn't enough. the gx is ancient. the nx/ux refreshes should help them some. the ES has had enough refreshes that it will continue to appeal to those who it has always appealed to, for now at least.as an LC500 owner, i don't expect to see it in production much longer, but who knows. the future is electric, and lexus is just way behind in one sense, but then many other luxury brands (cadillac, lincoln, acura, infiniti, etc) have yet to actually deliver EVs too. but with genesis moving in, mb/audi/bmw offering them now, i'm sure there's a sense of urgency inside lexus at this time, especially in hot markets like california.
How do you think a reviewer can review an S Class and then review a CR-V both with credibility? Because they, and I, understand that those vehicles need to be appreciated through the lens of their competition and price point.
The issue with Lexus' bread and butter cars is that they are just not truly premium/luxury cars because of their architecture. There is only so much you can do with a transverse FWD platform and a macpherson strut suspension in the front. That car will ALWAYS feel more like an Accord than a 5 series, for example. Thats an issue for the ES, RX, NX, so on and so forth. Once you are accustomed to more sophisticated cars and how they ride, drive and feel its hard to go back to that and feel fulfilled, if you are someone who gets that. I know that because I was accustomed to a BOF RWD SUV and the LS400 and I went to an ES300.
Thats fine when the cars are cheaper, and for the most part all those Lexus vehicles are cheap for their size profile. For instance with the ES you get a 5 series size car for 3 series money, and the tradeoff is the sophistication of its design. RX is the same thing, GLE sized vehicle for GLC money. Thats why I bought two ESs, and even though they never felt quite "enough" to me, they had the size and appeal I wanted and could afford. Genesis though has vehicles that when decently optioned offer that next level sophistication and size profile and they overlap the Lexus offerings when they are really highly optioned, and the Genesis cars are better cars for that money.
$46,000? I would buy an ES. $55,000 I would buy a G80.
Last edited by SW17LS; 09-07-22 at 06:41 AM.
09-07-22, 08:13 AM
#102
I totally agree, but they should...thats the point of what I'm saying.
Thats with an insane markup, a fully loaded Accord is right around $40k, ES starts at $42k makes perfect sense. Most ES's sell under 50k. Below $50k, the ES is a very compelling car.
At $47k, buying an Accord over an ES spec'ed to $47k is as silly as buying a $55k ES over a $56k G80...
Thats with an insane markup, a fully loaded Accord is right around $40k, ES starts at $42k makes perfect sense. Most ES's sell under 50k. Below $50k, the ES is a very compelling car.
At $47k, buying an Accord over an ES spec'ed to $47k is as silly as buying a $55k ES over a $56k G80...
09-07-22, 10:10 AM
#103
IMO I think you left out an important point that most of ES (RX or even GX) buyers have. This is a big spending. And they just don't want to risk it. They are not someone who will be looking for another new car 2-3 years later. They are not die hard Lexus owners either. They simply just want what's best in their belief for their spending. While Genesis and many other brands make wonderful cars, for these folks, they are simply not interested. Take the GV80 for instance, as nice as it looks and some think it's best in class, I see one or two in a few weeks. Some weeks I don't even run into one. This is the same from the beginning of its intro and after Tiger's accident. On the other hand, everyday I (and you) see RX, GX, GLE, X5, Q7 every where. The new MDX is also more common, a lot more common than the GV80. And it also makes sense because these buyers feel comfortable with Acura.
The majority of Lexus owners lease, even moreso than Mercedes and Audi, so Lexus owners generally do look for another car in 2-3 years time. Lexus owners can be brand loyal, especially in the case of the GX which has no true rival, but the NX/ES/RX buyers are just looking for the best bang for their buck, and the ES and RX are incredibly attractive because of their size-to-price like Steve already mentioned. No other luxury brand currently offers anything like the ES or RX. But as I've been saying, that equation changes once the ES and RX become priced like the equivalently-sized Germans, and that's when they'll really have to survive by their merits (and badge/brand loyalty) rather than value. That's also when things that were okay before, like a FWD platform with strut suspension, will no longer be as okay.
Of course, other brands like Volvo have been able to overcome that stigma, so it's not out of the question that Lexus can do the same even with a FWD platform and all 4-cylinder lineup. We'll find out in a few days once the driving embargo on the RX500h drops. The days of an X5-priced RX are coming.
Last edited by Motorola; 09-07-22 at 10:26 AM.
09-07-22, 10:55 AM
#104
Genesis though has vehicles that when decently optioned offer that next level sophistication and size profile and they overlap the Lexus offerings when they are really highly optioned, and the Genesis cars are better cars for that money.
$46,000? I would buy an ES. $55,000 I would buy a G80.
A rough-running Four and RWD are not "better" for a Rust Belt driver like me than a whisper-smooth V6 and FWD. I know I'm uttering heresy with the FWD part. But when I was buying a car a dozen years ago for highway trips through the Great Lakes snow belt, the RWD of the otherwise magnificent LS 430 made it a non-starter. AWD, especially with torque vectoring, is more sophisticated than FWD, and that's what I chose instead. But RWD, even with limited slip? For my situation, no. And a Four and fake wood and plastic upholstery? There's no defending the "superior sophistication" of that under any circumstances. Because that's what Genesis gives you "for that money" (your words, not mine).
09-07-22, 01:44 PM
#105
Lexus Fanatic
IMO I think you left out an important point that most of ES (RX or even GX) buyers have. This is a big spending. And they just don't want to risk it. They are not someone who will be looking for another new car 2-3 years later. They are not die hard Lexus owners either. They simply just want what's best in their belief for their spending. While Genesis and many other brands make wonderful cars, for these folks, they are simply not interested. Take the GV80 for instance, as nice as it looks and some think it's best in class, I see one or two in a few weeks. Some weeks I don't even run into one. This is the same from the beginning of its intro and after Tiger's accident. On the other hand, everyday I (and you) see RX, GX, GLE, X5, Q7 every where. The new MDX is also more common, a lot more common than the GV80. And it also makes sense because these buyers feel comfortable with Acura.
"for that money" is where your argument falls apart, for me at least.
A rough-running Four and RWD are not "better" for a Rust Belt driver like me than a whisper-smooth V6 and FWD. I know I'm uttering heresy with the FWD part. But when I was buying a car a dozen years ago for highway trips through the Great Lakes snow belt, the RWD of the otherwise magnificent LS 430 made it a non-starter. AWD, especially with torque vectoring, is more sophisticated than FWD, and that's what I chose instead. But RWD, even with limited slip? For my situation, no. And a Four and fake wood and plastic upholstery? There's no defending the "superior sophistication" of that under any circumstances. Because that's what Genesis gives you "for that money" (your words, not mine).
A rough-running Four and RWD are not "better" for a Rust Belt driver like me than a whisper-smooth V6 and FWD. I know I'm uttering heresy with the FWD part. But when I was buying a car a dozen years ago for highway trips through the Great Lakes snow belt, the RWD of the otherwise magnificent LS 430 made it a non-starter. AWD, especially with torque vectoring, is more sophisticated than FWD, and that's what I chose instead. But RWD, even with limited slip? For my situation, no. And a Four and fake wood and plastic upholstery? There's no defending the "superior sophistication" of that under any circumstances. Because that's what Genesis gives you "for that money" (your words, not mine).
There is no denying the sophistication of the powertrain (RWD vs FWD) and the suspension setup in the G80, a multi-link front suspension pays major dividends in ride and handling over a macpherson strut set up like the ES has. As for RWD, with modern skid control systems I would drive a RWD car in the snow before FWD every time. I'd pay the extra for AWD, but RWD with winter tires will trump FWD every time. I went from AWD in my LS460 to RWD in my LS460L and back to AWD in my S560. I was amazed by how well the RWD LS460L did with modern skid and traction control. FWD/Mac strut is a cheap and economical setup, but it doesn't deliver much driving/riding sophistication.
I too would rather have real leather, but would I take real leather but also FWD and strut suspension? No.
Last edited by SW17LS; 09-07-22 at 01:47 PM.