2023 Lexus ES Gets a Few Updates In Europe
09-07-22, 01:58 PM
#106
Lexus Fanatic
I completely agree, this is why people buy Camrys and Corollas and Rav4s when there are way better vehicles in their price segments. Most people just buy cars as transportation. Like I have said many times just because those people buy more of a certain car doesn't mean that as someone who sees cars as more than that I want to buy those cars.
Its not a rough running 4 lol, the engine is very smooth and refined. Next gen ES like it or not will also be a 4, as the RX now is. G80 advance has real wood trim, and yes it has synthetic leather but so do Range Rovers, times are changing there. Taken as a whole, the ES has much more hard plastic in the interior etc which is to be expected given its starting price. G80 is also much more isolated from road noise than the ES, which is not especially quiet inside at all. The G80 is just a higher end product.
There is no denying the sophistication of the powertrain (RWD vs FWD) and the suspension setup in the G80, a multi-link front suspension pays major dividends in ride and handling over a macpherson strut set up like the ES has. As for RWD, with modern skid control systems I would drive a RWD car in the snow before FWD every time. I'd pay the extra for AWD, but RWD with winter tires will trump FWD every time. I went from AWD in my LS460 to RWD in my LS460L and back to AWD in my S560. I was amazed by how well the RWD LS460L did with modern skid and traction control. FWD/Mac strut is a cheap and economical setup, but it doesn't deliver much driving/riding sophistication.
I too would rather have real leather, but would I take real leather but also FWD and strut suspension? No.
Its not a rough running 4 lol, the engine is very smooth and refined. Next gen ES like it or not will also be a 4, as the RX now is. G80 advance has real wood trim, and yes it has synthetic leather but so do Range Rovers, times are changing there. Taken as a whole, the ES has much more hard plastic in the interior etc which is to be expected given its starting price. G80 is also much more isolated from road noise than the ES, which is not especially quiet inside at all. The G80 is just a higher end product.
There is no denying the sophistication of the powertrain (RWD vs FWD) and the suspension setup in the G80, a multi-link front suspension pays major dividends in ride and handling over a macpherson strut set up like the ES has. As for RWD, with modern skid control systems I would drive a RWD car in the snow before FWD every time. I'd pay the extra for AWD, but RWD with winter tires will trump FWD every time. I went from AWD in my LS460 to RWD in my LS460L and back to AWD in my S560. I was amazed by how well the RWD LS460L did with modern skid and traction control. FWD/Mac strut is a cheap and economical setup, but it doesn't deliver much driving/riding sophistication.
I too would rather have real leather, but would I take real leather but also FWD and strut suspension? No.
The ES is the perfect vehicle for those who want to move up from a Camry or an Avalon. Or perhaps they had a Honda Accord. These buyers want something Japanese. Something reliable. Some pleasant. Something relatively affordable. Widespread possible options such hybrid, awd, and V6. And an extensive dealer network with the best after purchase service. The ES doesn’t even use premium fuel. The G80 is in a completely different buying segment, heck it’s not even FWD. Fact is, Lexus abandoned the G80 segment when they deleted the GS.Buick, Lincoln, and Acura used to compete with the Lexus ES, but they deleted their North American models. The Lexus ES is sort of in a world all to itself.
09-07-22, 02:10 PM
#107
Lexus Fanatic
You are beating this to death The ES is the perfect vehicle for those who want to move up from a Camry or an Avalon. Or perhaps they had a Honda Accord. These buyers want something Japanese. Something reliable. Some pleasant. Something relatively affordable. Widespread possible options such hybrid, awd, and V6. And an extensive dealer network with the best after purchase service. The ES doesn’t even use premium fuel. The G80 is in a completely different buying segment, heck it’s not even FWD. Fact is, Lexus abandoned the G80 segment when they deleted the GS.
Buick, Lincoln, and Acura used to compete with the Lexus ES, but they deleted their North American models. The Lexus ES is sort of in a world all to itself.
The ES is the perfect vehicle for those who want to move up from a Camry or an Avalon. Or perhaps they had a Honda Accord. These buyers want something Japanese. Something reliable. Some pleasant. Something relatively affordable. Widespread possible options such hybrid, awd, and V6. And an extensive dealer network with the best after purchase service. The ES doesn’t even use premium fuel. The G80 is in a completely different buying segment, heck it’s not even FWD. Fact is, Lexus abandoned the G80 segment when they deleted the GS.Buick, Lincoln, and Acura used to compete with the Lexus ES, but they deleted their North American models. The Lexus ES is sort of in a world all to itself.
Thats what was so sad about Lexus cancelling the GS, if they had cancelled the ES and made the GS larger, most of their ES customers would have bought one. But, their GS customers aren't going to buy a FWD ES. They could have mitigated that somewhat by offering an AWD version of the ES which hides some of the FWD issues but they inexplicably limited that to the ES250 which for sure no enthusiasts would buy.
What I object to is the removal of vehicles that are proper premium products that appeal to those of us who understand and appreciate their engineering and sophistication and replacement of them with FWD, transverse cars with cheap macpherson strut suspensions. Its become the "good enough" brand, for buyers "who don't really care". Not very appealing to me. With Mercedes, for instance, outside of a few models every car they make is designed to be the best car it can be within the confines of what it is, and that to me is very appealing. Lexus used to be that way too, I wish they would be again.
The ES makes a ton of sense in the price bracket below $50-52k, but when you get up to a fully loaded $55k ES there are better cars. Thats all I've ever said, not sure why its been reacted to so strongly.
Last edited by SW17LS; 09-07-22 at 02:19 PM.
09-07-22, 02:26 PM
#108
Lexus Fanatic
What I object to is the removal of vehicles that are proper premium products that appeal to those of us who understand and appreciate their engineering and sophistication and replacement of them with FWD, transverse cars with cheap macpherson strut suspensions. Its become the "good enough" brand, for buyers "who don't really care". Not very appealing to me. With Mercedes, for instance, outside of a few models every car they make is designed to be the best car it can be within the confines of what it is, and that to me is very appealing. Lexus used to be that way too, I wish they would be again.
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The segment has sunset for Lexus to have a traditional GS
^^^. These G80 numbers are too low in reality.
09-07-22, 02:34 PM
#109
Lexus Fanatic
Lexus needed one model to fit both of those buyers, the issue is they chose the wrong model. It may have been the smart financial move from a bean counter perspective, but it seriously hurts them as a real luxury player.
Genesis can make the G80 work because they have the GV80 and the GV70 built off of that platform which reduces its opportunity cost. Lexus can do this too, but they are unwilling to invest in the GA-L platform that is used in the LS and LC and adapt it for proper RWD based crossovers which would sell in higher numbers and help defray its costs.
At this point all we can hope for as enthusiasts for Lexus is that they have some really great EVs coming, EVs are the great equalizer of the FWD/RWD argument.
To be clear, there is nothing wrong with the ES. The ES is a great car for the money, but its a little too expensive highly optioned for what it is intrinsically IMO. Its the same argument as to why a $75K MDX Type S makes no sense...because you can buy an X5 and no matter how much they tart up the MDX, its still at its core a transverse, FWD Honda Pilot and the bones of the X5 make it a more sophisticated vehicle.
Genesis can make the G80 work because they have the GV80 and the GV70 built off of that platform which reduces its opportunity cost. Lexus can do this too, but they are unwilling to invest in the GA-L platform that is used in the LS and LC and adapt it for proper RWD based crossovers which would sell in higher numbers and help defray its costs.
At this point all we can hope for as enthusiasts for Lexus is that they have some really great EVs coming, EVs are the great equalizer of the FWD/RWD argument.
To be clear, there is nothing wrong with the ES. The ES is a great car for the money, but its a little too expensive highly optioned for what it is intrinsically IMO. Its the same argument as to why a $75K MDX Type S makes no sense...because you can buy an X5 and no matter how much they tart up the MDX, its still at its core a transverse, FWD Honda Pilot and the bones of the X5 make it a more sophisticated vehicle.
09-07-22, 02:45 PM
#110
Lexus Fanatic
I have to disagree. You don’t change something that has worked for Lexus for 30+ years such as the ES. The GA-L platform does have the spiritual successor to the GS in the upcoming Crown Sedan hybrid. It’s far easier to sell that as a Toyota in world markets than it is as a Lexus in the United States. sedans in the US are on the endangered species list
09-07-22, 02:48 PM
#111
Lexus Fanatic
I have to disagree. You don’t change something that has worked for Lexus for 30+ years such as the ES. The GA-L platform does have the spiritual successor to the GS in the upcoming Crown Sedan hybrid. It’s far easier to sell that as a Toyota in world markets than it is as a Lexus in the United States. sedans in the US are on the endangered species list
I wouldnt have the issue with the lack of sedans if we had some proper crossovers, but right now we have nothing. Thats why we should celebrate Genesis and what they are doing, they are building truly premium cars and selling them at more accessible price points.
09-07-22, 02:50 PM
#112
Lexus Fanatic
But back to ES…I feel Lexus was pretty smart to widen the appeal of the ES worldwide.
09-07-22, 02:54 PM
#113
Lexus Fanatic
I am seeing a LOT of GV70s on the road.
Its smart in that they are all in on this concept that they are focusing on more "near-luxury" vehicles than true luxury vehicles, and the ES fits into that. I suppose we just have to accept that.
Its smart in that they are all in on this concept that they are focusing on more "near-luxury" vehicles than true luxury vehicles, and the ES fits into that. I suppose we just have to accept that.
09-07-22, 03:07 PM
#114
Lexus Fanatic
The competitive advantage for Lexus is with their hybrid and new hybrid+ and plug in options at this point. IMO. Nobody else really comes close and Lexus is far ahead of everyone else.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 09-07-22 at 03:16 PM.
09-07-22, 04:29 PM
#115
Lexus Test Driver
I agree with the objection about the removal of GS…but from a fan and enthusiast POV. Not from $$$ and sense (cents). Building a traditional GS at this point just doesn’t make sense financially…that is why it’s gone.
The segment has sunset for Lexus to have a traditional GS
^^^. These G80 numbers are too low in reality.
The segment has sunset for Lexus to have a traditional GS
^^^. These G80 numbers are too low in reality.
I agree with Steve, the demand exists for a proper midsize RWD luxury sedan, the GS was just never given the time of day because the ES cannibalized it.
Last edited by Motorola; 09-07-22 at 04:33 PM.
09-07-22, 04:49 PM
#116
SW17LS, with all due respect, you seem so eager to win this quasi-debate you've concocted against the ES that you've jumped the shark here at multiple points.
"the ES is not especially quiet inside at all."
I'll leave this one to others: Edmunds: "Quiet." C/D: "whisper quiet when crusing." Kelley Blue Book: "Even quieter than before." Motor Trend: "Vault-like quiet."
Of the base G80's turbo four, you say "Its not a rough running 4 lol, the engine is very smooth and refined." Others disagree. C/D: "The sounds of a four-cylinder at work aren't inspiring enough to make us want to keep running the engine to its 6250-rpm redline." Motor Trend: "The 300-hp turbo-four lacked the smoothness and refinement of others in the class." Savagegeese: "The turbo four doesn't particularly fit the character of the G80, with how refined it is."
You also irrelevantly mention that "Next gen ES like it or not will also be a 4." And I won't buy it. The previous generations of the G80 offered a V8, and now they don't, yet you aren't docking them points for that. I'm living in the present; why aren't you?
But the piece de resistance has to be your assertion that "with modern skid control systems I would drive a RWD car in the snow before FWD every time. RWD with winter tires will trump FWD every time."
May god have mercy on your soul if you ever actually try this in the Snow Belt. There's a very good reason why even iconic RWD brands like BMW now sell mostly AWD sedans here. If you're trying to say that modern skid control systems and winter tires are so good as to negate the inherent snow-traction disadvantage of RWD, okay. But that's not what you said. It's like saying I'm faster than Tyreek Hill on an ice rink, provided that I have cleats and he's sliding around on sneakers. You can't just negate the laws of physics -- having the engine's weight over the drive wheels is an advantage in snow, full stop. Worse yet, the comment is irrelevant anyway since the ES also has modern skid control systems and available winter tires. This is such a reach, I have to think at this point you're just saying any old thing to win an Internet debate. Okay, whatever.
"the ES is not especially quiet inside at all."
I'll leave this one to others: Edmunds: "Quiet." C/D: "whisper quiet when crusing." Kelley Blue Book: "Even quieter than before." Motor Trend: "Vault-like quiet."
Of the base G80's turbo four, you say "Its not a rough running 4 lol, the engine is very smooth and refined." Others disagree. C/D: "The sounds of a four-cylinder at work aren't inspiring enough to make us want to keep running the engine to its 6250-rpm redline." Motor Trend: "The 300-hp turbo-four lacked the smoothness and refinement of others in the class." Savagegeese: "The turbo four doesn't particularly fit the character of the G80, with how refined it is."
You also irrelevantly mention that "Next gen ES like it or not will also be a 4." And I won't buy it. The previous generations of the G80 offered a V8, and now they don't, yet you aren't docking them points for that. I'm living in the present; why aren't you?
But the piece de resistance has to be your assertion that "with modern skid control systems I would drive a RWD car in the snow before FWD every time. RWD with winter tires will trump FWD every time."
May god have mercy on your soul if you ever actually try this in the Snow Belt. There's a very good reason why even iconic RWD brands like BMW now sell mostly AWD sedans here. If you're trying to say that modern skid control systems and winter tires are so good as to negate the inherent snow-traction disadvantage of RWD, okay. But that's not what you said. It's like saying I'm faster than Tyreek Hill on an ice rink, provided that I have cleats and he's sliding around on sneakers. You can't just negate the laws of physics -- having the engine's weight over the drive wheels is an advantage in snow, full stop. Worse yet, the comment is irrelevant anyway since the ES also has modern skid control systems and available winter tires. This is such a reach, I have to think at this point you're just saying any old thing to win an Internet debate. Okay, whatever.
09-07-22, 04:49 PM
#117
09-07-22, 04:58 PM
#118
Lexus Fanatic
Of the base G80's turbo four, you say "Its not a rough running 4 lol, the engine is very smooth and refined." Others disagree. C/D: "The sounds of a four-cylinder at work aren't inspiring enough to make us want to keep running the engine to its 6250-rpm redline." Motor Trend: "The 300-hp turbo-four lacked the smoothness and refinement of others in the class." Savagegeese: "The turbo four doesn't particularly fit the character of the G80, with how refined it is."
They aren't wrong, and of course I would rather have a V8 and would rather have a V6. The engine in the G80 2.5 though is plenty smooth and refined in normal driving, its just up in the rev bands that its not as refined as a 6. Wouldn't stop me from getting a G80 at that price point because of the other benefits.
Since we are talking about magazine reviews, C&D's rating of the G80 is 9/10. Their rating of the GV80 is 10/10. Their rating of the ES350 is 6.5/10. RX is 6.5/10. So 4 cyl notwithstanding they rate the Genesis cars much higher.
You also irrelevantly mention that "Next gen ES like it or not will also be a 4." And I won't buy it. The previous generations of the G80 offered a V8, and now they don't, yet you aren't docking them points for that. I'm living in the present; why aren't you?
But the piece de resistance has to be your assertion that "with modern skid control systems I would drive a RWD car in the snow before FWD every time. RWD with winter tires will trump FWD every time."
May god have mercy on your soul if you ever actually try this in the Snow Belt. There's a very good reason why even iconic RWD brands like BMW now sell mostly AWD sedans here. If you're trying to say that modern skid control systems and winter tires are so good as to negate the inherent snow-traction disadvantage of RWD, okay. But that's not what you said. It's like saying I'm faster than Tyreek Hill on an ice rink, provided that I have cleats and he's sliding around on sneakers. You can't just negate the laws of physics -- having the engine's weight over the drive wheels is an advantage in snow, full stop. Worse yet, the comment is irrelevant anyway since the ES also has modern skid control systems and available winter tires. This is such a reach, I have to think at this point you're just saying any old thing to win an Internet debate. Okay, whatever.
May god have mercy on your soul if you ever actually try this in the Snow Belt. There's a very good reason why even iconic RWD brands like BMW now sell mostly AWD sedans here. If you're trying to say that modern skid control systems and winter tires are so good as to negate the inherent snow-traction disadvantage of RWD, okay. But that's not what you said. It's like saying I'm faster than Tyreek Hill on an ice rink, provided that I have cleats and he's sliding around on sneakers. You can't just negate the laws of physics -- having the engine's weight over the drive wheels is an advantage in snow, full stop. Worse yet, the comment is irrelevant anyway since the ES also has modern skid control systems and available winter tires. This is such a reach, I have to think at this point you're just saying any old thing to win an Internet debate. Okay, whatever.
The "need" for AWD is way overstated. I like AWD here because I don't need winter tires. If I lived in the snow belt I would run winter tires whether I had AWD, FWD or RWD.
There is a reason that as cars get more expensive, they become RWD. RWD is a better platform.
You don't need to justify your purchase decision to me, its just not the one I would have made. Thats okay.
Last edited by SW17LS; 09-07-22 at 05:16 PM.
09-07-22, 04:59 PM
#119
Lexus Fanatic
Still rides and drives better than the ES, which it should obviously for the cost.
But if those things don't matter to you, then an ES is a great buy. Its a great choice for a ton of people.
But if those things don't matter to you, then an ES is a great buy. Its a great choice for a ton of people.
Last edited by SW17LS; 09-07-22 at 05:40 PM.
09-07-22, 06:03 PM
#120
Lexus Fanatic
But the piece de resistance has to be your assertion that "with modern skid control systems I would drive a RWD car in the snow before FWD every time. RWD with winter tires will trump FWD every time."
May god have mercy on your soul if you ever actually try this in the Snow Belt. There's a very good reason why even iconic RWD brands like BMW now sell mostly AWD sedans here. If you're trying to say that modern skid control systems and winter tires are so good as to negate the inherent snow-traction disadvantage of RWD, okay. But that's not what you said. It's like saying I'm faster than Tyreek Hill on an ice rink, provided that I have cleats and he's sliding around on sneakers. You can't just negate the laws of physics -- having the engine's weight over the drive wheels is an advantage in snow, full stop. Worse yet, the comment is irrelevant anyway since the ES also has modern skid control systems and available winter tires. This is such a reach, I have to think at this point you're just saying any old thing to win an Internet debate. Okay, whatever.
May god have mercy on your soul if you ever actually try this in the Snow Belt. There's a very good reason why even iconic RWD brands like BMW now sell mostly AWD sedans here. If you're trying to say that modern skid control systems and winter tires are so good as to negate the inherent snow-traction disadvantage of RWD, okay. But that's not what you said. It's like saying I'm faster than Tyreek Hill on an ice rink, provided that I have cleats and he's sliding around on sneakers. You can't just negate the laws of physics -- having the engine's weight over the drive wheels is an advantage in snow, full stop. Worse yet, the comment is irrelevant anyway since the ES also has modern skid control systems and available winter tires. This is such a reach, I have to think at this point you're just saying any old thing to win an Internet debate. Okay, whatever.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 09-07-22 at 06:08 PM.