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You try and lay this at me all the time. Actually as somebody who is really into and knowledgeable about cars, I am more than capable of driving a car and appreciating it for how it appeals to its target market. I drive many, many cars that I don't feek are "eh", and this isn't a function of price because both of these cars are the same price. For instance, I don't think the G80 is "eh", clearly. I also own a Chrysler minivan that when I drive it I don't think its "eh", its the best driving minivan one can buy.
How do you think a reviewer can review an S Class and then review a CR-V both with credibility? Because they, and I, understand that those vehicles need to be appreciated through the lens of their competition and price point.
The issue with Lexus' bread and butter cars is that they are just not truly premium/luxury cars because of their architecture. There is only so much you can do with a transverse FWD platform and a macpherson strut suspension in the front. That car will ALWAYS feel more like an Accord than a 5 series, for example. Thats an issue for the ES, RX, NX, so on and so forth. Once you are accustomed to more sophisticated cars and how they ride, drive and feel its hard to go back to that and feel fulfilled, if you are someone who gets that. I know that because I was accustomed to a BOF RWD SUV and the LS400 and I went to an ES300.
Thats fine when the cars are cheaper, and for the most part all those Lexus vehicles are cheap for their size profile. For instance with the ES you get a 5 series size car for 3 series money, and the tradeoff is the sophistication of its design. RX is the same thing, GLE sized vehicle for GLC money. Thats why I bought two ESs, and even though they never felt quite "enough" to me, they had the size and appeal I wanted and could afford. Genesis though has vehicles that when decently optioned offer that next level sophistication and size profile and they overlap the Lexus offerings when they are really highly optioned, and the Genesis cars are better cars for that money.
$46,000? I would buy an ES. $55,000 I would buy a G80.
i 'lay it at you' all the time, because while you like the g80, you've dissed the es over and over in this thread, while i completely disagree with you that's there's not much difference in price, your last point is telling. you'd buy an es at 46k but you'd buy a g80 for NINE THOUSANDS more at 55k. that's what to me shows you're out of touch with an es buyer. 9k may not be much to you, and sure there will be SOME loaded ES buyers, but obviously more buyers are lower trim levels who are perfectly happy with what it is. the es is successful. the es has outsold the g80 this year so far TEN TO ONE. (g80 YTD 2760, es YTD 28860) so maybe lexus' formula is still pretty good.
you keep saying YOU would buy a low end g80 over a loaded es, and that's fine, but you're a MUCH more knowledgeable car consumer than most es buyers.
You don't need to justify your purchase decision to me, its just not the one I would have made. Thats okay.
Trying to move the discussion from the inaccuracy of your statements to an unjustified slur that I'm calling them out because of insecurity over my own purchase decision. Wow, that's weak. I'm sincerely disappointed.
Build them yourself on Lexus.com and Genesis.com. G80s and ES350s have a price overlap between $50,000-56,000. Those are facts. There is nothing to believe or not believe. I know you hate me and it really pains you to agree with me, but I'm right lol.
This is a loaded ES350 UL:
This is an advance package RWD G80:
So, FACTS the G80 2WD advance is $950.00 more than a loaded ES350.
FACT: The G80 2WD Advance is not the loaded version of the car. You're making my point for me: The non-loaded G80 costs like a loaded ES 350. The cars are not comparably priced. I hope you won't respond again to this correction by accusing me again of personal insecurity; projection is never an attractive trait.
i 'lay it at you' all the time, because while you like the g80, you've dissed the es over and over in this thread, while i completely disagree with you that's there's not much difference in price, your last point is telling. you'd buy an es at 46k but you'd buy a g80 for NINE THOUSANDS more at 55k. that's what to me shows you're out of touch with an es buyer. 9k may not be much to you, and sure there will be SOME loaded ES buyers, but obviously more buyers are lower trim levels who are perfectly happy with what it is. the es is successful. the es has outsold the g80 this year so far TEN TO ONE. (g80 YTD 2760, es YTD 28860) so maybe lexus' formula is still pretty good.
you keep saying YOU would buy a low end g80 over a loaded es, and that's fine, but you're a MUCH more knowledgeable car consumer than most es buyers.
The prices of the two cars I have mentioned are basically the same. I have said that *I* would buy the G80 over the ES at that price point. I don’t understand why you are so agitated about that.
Money spent is a question of value. I think ES models priced in the 40s are a good value. When they get over $50k I don’t think they’re all that great a value. If you think I am comparing a $46,000 ES and a $55,000 G80 you aren’t understanding what I’m saying.
Wouldn’t your assertion that “I am a MUCH more knowledgeable car consumer than most ES buyers” imply that I am right?
Originally Posted by LexFinally
FACT: The G80 2WD Advance is not the loaded version of the car. You're making my point for me: The non-loaded G80 costs like a loaded ES 350. The cars are not comparably priced. I hope you won't respond again to this correction by accusing me again of personal insecurity; projection is never an attractive trait.
It’s not the loaded version of the car at all, I never said it was. I said that I would buy that G80 I posted over that ES that I posted. That’s all.
Just because the ES is “loaded” and that G80 isn’t loaded doesn’t mean anything. One doesn’t have to buy the loaded version of a car…I rarely have. I would rather have a G80 that isn’t loaded than a ES that is.
The prices of the two cars I have mentioned are basically the same. I have said that *I* would buy the G80 over the ES at that price point. I don’t understand why you are so agitated about that.
...
Wouldn’t your assertion that “I am a MUCH more knowledgeable car consumer than most ES buyers” imply that I am right?
1, i am not agitated lol.
2, my assertion implies you are right for you but not for everyone.
Lexus needed one model to fit both of those buyers, the issue is they chose the wrong model. It may have been the smart financial move from a bean counter perspective, but it seriously hurts them as a real luxury player.
Legitimate point, but I think Lexus really had no choice. They had an overlap between two models. One shared components only with the IS and was selling hundreds of units. The other shared components with the world's best-selling midsize sedan and was selling 30,000 units a year in the US alone. It's easy for us to deride profit considerations as "bean counting," but the need to make a profit is a business reality, There is no scenario where keeping the GS -- with or without an ES -- was viable at a time when the parent company's worldwide sales are reduced by supply chain constrictions, and capital is desperately needed to develop a catch-up engineering program for tomorrow's electric cars.
Unfortunately, the same applies to the LS as well, which plays right into your worst-case scenario about the top of the Lexus lineup evaporating. Now, Toyota remains a financial and intellectual powerhouse of a corporation (whether Wall Street thinks it's 1/3 of Tesla or not), and they know all of this better than we do, so you can assume there's planning going on right now for next moves. I think one of those moves will be a future LS flagship that's renamed and takes the form of a crossover, because that's what the people want. Time stands still for no one, not even LS/GS fans like me.
If you had $55,000 to spend, which car of the two I posted would you choose? Be honest.
Okay, I'll be honest. As I pointed out in my first post on this thread, I just answered this question. Before you asked. With my real money. And yes, I seriously considered the G80, of which I was fully aware.
Was my answer "wrong"? IYHO, yes, but it was indisputably my honest answer.
The demise of the GS happened long before any of the current supply chain issues. The fact is Lexus just clearly doesn’t have any appetite at current to develop high end vehicles. They certainly can do whatever they want, and can make them economically feasible if they want but they don’t. Like I said, we can only turn our hopes to EVs.
Originally Posted by LexFinally
Okay, I'll be honest. As I pointed out in my first post on this thread, I just answered this question. Before you asked. With my real money. And yes, I seriously considered the G80, of which I was fully aware.
Was my answer "wrong"? IYHO, yes, but it was indisputably my honest answer.
I don’t think your answer was wrong, you weren’t who I asked though. You outlined your reasons for why you chose the ES and they are perfectly logical. You prioritized Lexus’ track record for reliability and ease of repair and maintenance over the long term over the trade offs in chassis design. I totally get it.
Lol, is this even a question? A 15 year old FWD platform that was never all that great vs a RWD/AWD TTV6 with 475hp with a stage one tune.......
Sure the ES will last longer and won't randomly explode or start drinking oil but car vs car the ES might as well be a 4 cyl Camry next to the G80. If you are in the G80 you won't even glance at the ES as you pass it on the left 40mpg faster.
If they would drive one, they would find it has more of what is actually meaningful to them. Like I said, if you like an ES350 you would love a G80. The G80 is like a little LS. Smoother, quieter, better built, nicer inside, more refined, better ride. Nothing not to like.
I always say Lexus left me, I didn't leave Lexus. If Lexus hadn't changed the LS so drastically I would still have one for sure.
Ditto. The G80 is not quite my tastes but if you forced me to pick between an ES and the G80 it would take me about 2 seconds even if I'm not a Hyundai fan and question the quality. I can't pass up that much better of a drive, even the 4 cyl is superior to the ES
It's more than that. It's the entire package. For a luxury car daily driver, I'd never consider the LS. It would consider the ES.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
Then the quality and sophistication of the LS doesn't matter to you. I wouldn't choose an LS500 either, but I would take an LS over an ES. Being accustomed to flagship cars I could never go back to driving an ES.
Yeah. Once you try it it's impossible to not realize how much better an LS is. If you don't value the massive improvements then it's just not for you but don't try and pretend the ES is the same tier of car.
I buy cars from the perspective of platform, performance, quality, parts network, and then other features in that order. I don't care what brand they are, I care if it's a RWD based platform with at least 8 cyl and the more advanced systems like LSDs, fixed caliper brakes, forced induction, faster transmissions, improved headlights, etc it has the better. The closest I can get to that ideal is where I will always trend.
Stuff like a 360 cam and lane keep are not something I really use so if you handed an option sheet with items like that versus performance upgrades on it I would pick the performance stuff every time. However if a car can give you all of it why not?
Lexus got me interested since it offers a LOT in the LS that is just not typical at any level and it's all standard, active lights, forged aluminum subframes, multilink, knuckles, fixed caliper brakes all around, brake ducts, ram air, a very advanced engine with a forced induction pathway, a very quick and good trans ratio spread, a rear LSD option, and very good chassis dynamics. On TOP of that it also piles on extremely high quality, fit levels and material selection backed up with really easy to get parts and extremely high ease of service. It's like a charger that doesn't have a Mattel interior with an advanced suspension and driveline. I'm saying that in a good way btw since dodge makes great to drive cars that have other issues....the LS gets you an even better drive and so much more.
Audi got me hooked since you get most of that with some losses to quality and standard features (looses the fixed calipers, and some alum parts in the suspension. Latter isn't that major since it gains alum body) but it adds on a massively powerful stock engine and better driveline. Sure it's not as high quality and parts are harder to get....but those factors only get you so far.
The ES is a Camry. You try and keep up with any LS and you will hit the wall on a off-ramp or overpass sweeper. The G80 is compelling since it comes very close to offering the ideal attributes that make people still pick cars over MUCH larger and more comfortable SUVs. The ES would lose to a similar price SUV since both are slow, both won't handle well, and both are underpowered but at least the SUV is larger and more useful.
Lol, is this even a question? A 15 year old FWD platform that was never all that great vs a RWD/AWD TTV6 with 475hp with a stage one tune.......
Sure the ES will last longer and won't randomly explode or start drinking oil but car vs car the ES might as well be a 4 cyl Camry next to the G80. If you are in the G80 you won't even glance at the ES as you pass it on the left 40mpg faster.
Uhmmm... I think your answer is very subjective and definitely not how ES owners would feel. I'm very open minded but if the question were for me, and I were in the market for this price range, I would not consider G80.
Uhmmm... I think your answer is very subjective and definitely not how ES owners would feel. I'm very open minded but if the question were for me, and I were in the market for this price range, I would not consider G80.
09-07-22, 06:08 PM
