Lexus loaner experience/ES250 review
09-21-22, 06:50 AM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Lexus loaner experience/ES250 review
I just dropped my 460 off for an alignment and my dealer finally has a full stock of loaners again, there was a solitary ES250 set aside for me since I requested a car not the usual RX they issue to people. The service was good, I was out of my car and into the loaner in under 10 min with no fuss and my SA indeed remembered my preferences on washes/wanting a full printout and the type of customer I am. I'm very pleased that things are back to normal, for a while during peak covid it was very much an annoyance to get alignments done since there were no loaners and a bunch of SAs quit or just weren't in predictably.
Overall the service aspect was great and went just as expected.
The car I was issued is a mid/low equipment spec, I am not sure that higher trims would have made much difference though outside of better seat adjustments. This car only has basic adjustments, I can't set lumbar height, seat length, and the headrest required me to actually pull it manually. Seats themselves are okay, not exactly well bolstered or super cushy but they do well enough in both aspects. I would prefer more road vibration filtering, the seats seemed to allow quite a lot of impacts though or perhaps I am just feeling more suspension pass-though of the road than I am used to.
Materials wise there are some bizarre decisions, areas that are closer to you and that you have a high chance to touch like the console sides, entire lower half of the doors, the closer parts of the dash, and seat sides are all hard plastic with some texture. Strangely enough the further parts of the dash and area your leg doesn't contact on the center console closer to the dash are soft touch or "leather". The headliner is okay, not anything special....the A pillars are covered in somewhat soft material so that's nice and not typical of this range of car on a near base spec. Overall the interior is tight and space/seating position (I'm 6'1", balanced proportions with a heavier build) with more than enough adjustability for me to be able to sit and drive how I normally like to. Actuators for the seat and wheel are somewhat loud, they are not silent like I am used to and they do not offer as refined of adjustment control so some aspects took two tries. Overall quality and ergos are typical Lexus, quite good.
Exterior wise panel gap, paint, glass distortion, and general fit are all typical Lexus. The only thing I don't like are how cheap the doors feel and sound with both the handle and latch feel, and closure sound. The sound and feel like something off a much cheaper car, a hollow thin skinned reverb with a unpleasant tone. The fact it doesn't have soft close to avoid needing to hear/feel the doors close compounds the issue, IMO this makes the car feel substantially cheaper than it is. You can actually see in the video I'll link the whole outer door skin flutter when I close the door.
Infotainment wise the car was easy to setup, I was linked, temp set, driving aids disabled, mirrors adjusted, screens adjusted, and all that type of stuff in under 5 minutes no issues. The remote touch works perfectly fine and even not having used the menus in this car before I was able to get directly to what I needed without needing to back out of a menu even once, so zero complaints there. Audio system is okay, nothing special but also not at all lacking/imbalanced at least in my so far short drive from the dealer back to my house. I'll play it more on the way back down from my shop, the way up will be just observation of how the car rides/handles/etc on roads I know very well. The main and info screens both have glare issues but that is to be expected, the high mount info screen is 1/2 to 3/4 useable if the sun is at a low angle. The voice controls still suck, literally useless and annoying to even attempt to use.
From what I have gathered so far on my first drive the suspension on this car doesn't uh......suspend very well. There is a distinct feeling of 4 pogo stick like motions that "poke" the corners of the car upwards and make the whole vehicle feel like it's on stilts, the system doesn't follow the road keeping the car attitude flat while providing feedback to me like I'm used to. It has a very down-market feeling that is no different than an Altima as far as body motion control and driver feedback, the car never feels settled and confident. Steering is overboosted at all speeds even in sport mode, combine this with the tires the car comes with and you have a lot of slip angle before the car moves/responds and there is a delay in all inputs. I am not sure what is most at fault here but I am going to default to tires just being very low performance since I drove up there on pilot sports. Braking performance is also poor, outright power is not there and the initial application has a feeling of sliding though the brakes at first. Handling is also sub par, you get tire squeal and slight plowing upon entering my neighbor hood going only 27.......I can take the same turn going 50-60 in my 460 no problem.
Engine and transmission wise.......oh man. The whiplash going from even the 4.6 to this 2.0 is horrible, for the car to accelerate like I normally would like to during calm driving I need to bring it up to 4200-5000 rpm. I usually slowly swell rpms from idle to around 2200 max to glide my way to desired speeds, this thing can't do that or you will take FOREVER to get to even 40 and just anger everyone else in the general vicinity of the car who are also trying to get on 270. Speaking of, the on ramp power is so low I was shocked! This vehicle massively fails one aspect of being a luxury car in that it has no sense of effortless ease, I had to yield to everything else and really plan my movements. On the plus side the transmission was more than happy to hold rpms around 3000-3500 most of the time in sport mode and is very downshift happy at least, in that mode the car is bearable but in any other it's totally unacceptable. Shifting behavior is usually good, sometimes it lurches/thumps into gears or hangs shifts but that's to be expected and it again is not nearly as bad in sport mode. The engine is loud and very buzzy, this is compounded by the fact it needs 4k+ to have any chance of moving a larger car like an ES with any sense of urgency/smoothness. This also kills MPGs to worse than my 460 on the exact same drive.
Never buy this car with the 4 cyl engine. Get the 3.5 unless the AWD is a hard must have, that's the only reason I could ever think to get this version. That said I can't see this car ever being worth 43k, maybe like 30k or so would be more fair for what you are getting since you aren't getting much car here past the build quality and interior space being decent.
Anyhow now that I have burnt up 30 min writing this and watching some news I'm heading out to my shop for the day, I'll link up some pictures and see if it allows me to upload videos. If not I'll get those up later
Overall the service aspect was great and went just as expected.
The car I was issued is a mid/low equipment spec, I am not sure that higher trims would have made much difference though outside of better seat adjustments. This car only has basic adjustments, I can't set lumbar height, seat length, and the headrest required me to actually pull it manually. Seats themselves are okay, not exactly well bolstered or super cushy but they do well enough in both aspects. I would prefer more road vibration filtering, the seats seemed to allow quite a lot of impacts though or perhaps I am just feeling more suspension pass-though of the road than I am used to.
Materials wise there are some bizarre decisions, areas that are closer to you and that you have a high chance to touch like the console sides, entire lower half of the doors, the closer parts of the dash, and seat sides are all hard plastic with some texture. Strangely enough the further parts of the dash and area your leg doesn't contact on the center console closer to the dash are soft touch or "leather". The headliner is okay, not anything special....the A pillars are covered in somewhat soft material so that's nice and not typical of this range of car on a near base spec. Overall the interior is tight and space/seating position (I'm 6'1", balanced proportions with a heavier build) with more than enough adjustability for me to be able to sit and drive how I normally like to. Actuators for the seat and wheel are somewhat loud, they are not silent like I am used to and they do not offer as refined of adjustment control so some aspects took two tries. Overall quality and ergos are typical Lexus, quite good.
Exterior wise panel gap, paint, glass distortion, and general fit are all typical Lexus. The only thing I don't like are how cheap the doors feel and sound with both the handle and latch feel, and closure sound. The sound and feel like something off a much cheaper car, a hollow thin skinned reverb with a unpleasant tone. The fact it doesn't have soft close to avoid needing to hear/feel the doors close compounds the issue, IMO this makes the car feel substantially cheaper than it is. You can actually see in the video I'll link the whole outer door skin flutter when I close the door.
Infotainment wise the car was easy to setup, I was linked, temp set, driving aids disabled, mirrors adjusted, screens adjusted, and all that type of stuff in under 5 minutes no issues. The remote touch works perfectly fine and even not having used the menus in this car before I was able to get directly to what I needed without needing to back out of a menu even once, so zero complaints there. Audio system is okay, nothing special but also not at all lacking/imbalanced at least in my so far short drive from the dealer back to my house. I'll play it more on the way back down from my shop, the way up will be just observation of how the car rides/handles/etc on roads I know very well. The main and info screens both have glare issues but that is to be expected, the high mount info screen is 1/2 to 3/4 useable if the sun is at a low angle. The voice controls still suck, literally useless and annoying to even attempt to use.
From what I have gathered so far on my first drive the suspension on this car doesn't uh......suspend very well. There is a distinct feeling of 4 pogo stick like motions that "poke" the corners of the car upwards and make the whole vehicle feel like it's on stilts, the system doesn't follow the road keeping the car attitude flat while providing feedback to me like I'm used to. It has a very down-market feeling that is no different than an Altima as far as body motion control and driver feedback, the car never feels settled and confident. Steering is overboosted at all speeds even in sport mode, combine this with the tires the car comes with and you have a lot of slip angle before the car moves/responds and there is a delay in all inputs. I am not sure what is most at fault here but I am going to default to tires just being very low performance since I drove up there on pilot sports. Braking performance is also poor, outright power is not there and the initial application has a feeling of sliding though the brakes at first. Handling is also sub par, you get tire squeal and slight plowing upon entering my neighbor hood going only 27.......I can take the same turn going 50-60 in my 460 no problem.
Engine and transmission wise.......oh man. The whiplash going from even the 4.6 to this 2.0 is horrible, for the car to accelerate like I normally would like to during calm driving I need to bring it up to 4200-5000 rpm. I usually slowly swell rpms from idle to around 2200 max to glide my way to desired speeds, this thing can't do that or you will take FOREVER to get to even 40 and just anger everyone else in the general vicinity of the car who are also trying to get on 270. Speaking of, the on ramp power is so low I was shocked! This vehicle massively fails one aspect of being a luxury car in that it has no sense of effortless ease, I had to yield to everything else and really plan my movements. On the plus side the transmission was more than happy to hold rpms around 3000-3500 most of the time in sport mode and is very downshift happy at least, in that mode the car is bearable but in any other it's totally unacceptable. Shifting behavior is usually good, sometimes it lurches/thumps into gears or hangs shifts but that's to be expected and it again is not nearly as bad in sport mode. The engine is loud and very buzzy, this is compounded by the fact it needs 4k+ to have any chance of moving a larger car like an ES with any sense of urgency/smoothness. This also kills MPGs to worse than my 460 on the exact same drive.
Never buy this car with the 4 cyl engine. Get the 3.5 unless the AWD is a hard must have, that's the only reason I could ever think to get this version. That said I can't see this car ever being worth 43k, maybe like 30k or so would be more fair for what you are getting since you aren't getting much car here past the build quality and interior space being decent.
Anyhow now that I have burnt up 30 min writing this and watching some news I'm heading out to my shop for the day, I'll link up some pictures and see if it allows me to upload videos. If not I'll get those up later
Last edited by Striker223; 09-21-22 at 07:19 AM.
09-21-22, 07:05 AM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
The whiplash going from even the 4.6 to this 2.0 is horrible, for the car to accelerate like I normally would like to during calm driving I need to bring it up to 4200-5000 rpm.
09-21-22, 07:09 AM
#3
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Car. Not much to remark on here
Tires I mentioned, I have no doubt a lot of my complaints stem from these
Main display, the turn signal feel is very cheap/hollow and doesn't inspire confidence. That's a major touch point for me since I use it a lot.
Main stack, lacks some controls in used to and you need to menu surf to get to. Impossible to do while moving for some of it since it locks you out
Glare issue, nothing unexpected from a high mount screen
All hard plastics
More hard plastic, I don't understand why the "leather" section in front of my hand isn't extended back here since your leg will contact this.
Even more hard plastic, not as big of a deal but considering you will brace your hand here to adjust the vent I think it should be soft touch
I'll have to make another YouTube channel to post things here since my personal one has a bunch of unrelated junk on it. That will be done later in the day.
09-21-22, 07:27 AM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
Your assessment is pretty accurate. That 2.0 is a terrible engine, the 3.5 is much better, and the interior feels better in higher trims and in colors other than black. IMO an interior has to have good materials to feel good in all black.
But, your thoughts are all why I find it so ridiculous that people say "Why would you get the LS, the ES is bigger inside" I mean...you would have to completely stop caring about all the quality you find in the LS to be happy going back to the ES. And thats why I said I would accept the turbo 4 and the lack of real leather to get a G80 if I were spending in the mid 50s, because it has that quality.
Yeah I don't know why they do that, they do it in Toyota models too. Its almost like they want you to feel the hard plastic. in my two ESs I had/have, 2003 and 2010 all the lower rent materials were well hidden, padded materials on the whole door, etc. Even my wife's 2004 Prius didn't have overtly cheap materials right in your face.
When I talk about the macpherson strut suspensions on Toyota derived FWD Lexus models, this is what you are experiencing here. Its the lack of sophistication in the front suspension setup vs what you are used to. It doesn't feel different from something like an Altima...because its not. There just isn't any wheel control in anything but flat pavement in a macpherson strut setup and that yields a ride that lacks sophistication compared to a car with a multilink or even a double wishbone front suspension. Thats another reason why anybody that goes from the LS to the ES and is happy never recognized or appreciated what makes the LS special in the first place.
Even though the LS500 is compromised compared to older LS models, it is still a much better car to drive than an ES, and much much nicer inside.
For $45-50k this car is a good option, for $55k? Its not IMO.
But, your thoughts are all why I find it so ridiculous that people say "Why would you get the LS, the ES is bigger inside" I mean...you would have to completely stop caring about all the quality you find in the LS to be happy going back to the ES. And thats why I said I would accept the turbo 4 and the lack of real leather to get a G80 if I were spending in the mid 50s, because it has that quality.
Materials wise there are some bizarre decisions, areas that are closer to you and that you have a high chance to touch like the console sides, entire lower half of the doors, the closer parts of the dash, and seat sides are all hard plastic with some texture. Strangely enough the further parts of the dash and area your leg doesn't contact on the center console closer to the dash are soft touch or "leather".
There is a distinct feeling of 4 pogo stick like motions that "poke" the corners of the car upwards and make the whole vehicle feel like it's on stilts, the system doesn't follow the road keeping the car attitude flat while providing feedback to me like I'm used to. It has a very down-market feeling that is no different than an Altima as far as body motion control and driver feedback, the car never feels settled and confident.
Even though the LS500 is compromised compared to older LS models, it is still a much better car to drive than an ES, and much much nicer inside.
For $45-50k this car is a good option, for $55k? Its not IMO.
09-21-22, 08:32 AM
#5
Lexus Champion
I think the ES250 is a 2.5 liter, isn't it?
My GS is in for service right now. I was hoping to get an ES for a loaner, as I still haven't driven the newest gen, but was instead given a last gen NX. I was one customer away from getting a new NX350h. Maybe next time.
My GS is in for service right now. I was hoping to get an ES for a loaner, as I still haven't driven the newest gen, but was instead given a last gen NX. I was one customer away from getting a new NX350h. Maybe next time.
09-21-22, 08:33 AM
#6
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Your assessment is pretty accurate. That 2.0 is a terrible engine, the 3.5 is much better, and the interior feels better in higher trims and in colors other than black. IMO an interior has to have good materials to feel good in all black.
But, your thoughts are all why I find it so ridiculous that people say "Why would you get the LS, the ES is bigger inside" I mean...you would have to completely stop caring about all the quality you find in the LS to be happy going back to the ES. And thats why I said I would accept the turbo 4 and the lack of real leather to get a G80 if I were spending in the mid 50s, because it has that quality.
Yeah I don't know why they do that, they do it in Toyota models too. Its almost like they want you to feel the hard plastic. in my two ESs I had/have, 2003 and 2010 all the lower rent materials were well hidden, padded materials on the whole door, etc. Even my wife's 2004 Prius didn't have overtly cheap materials right in your face.
When I talk about the macpherson strut suspensions on Toyota derived FWD Lexus models, this is what you are experiencing here. Its the lack of sophistication in the front suspension setup vs what you are used to. It doesn't feel different from something like an Altima...because its not. There just isn't any wheel control in anything but flat pavement in a macpherson strut setup and that yields a ride that lacks sophistication compared to a car with a multilink or even a double wishbone front suspension. Thats another reason why anybody that goes from the LS to the ES and is happy never recognized or appreciated what makes the LS special in the first place.
Even though the LS500 is compromised compared to older LS models, it is still a much better car to drive than an ES, and much much nicer inside.
For $45-50k this car is a good option, for $55k? Its not IMO.
But, your thoughts are all why I find it so ridiculous that people say "Why would you get the LS, the ES is bigger inside" I mean...you would have to completely stop caring about all the quality you find in the LS to be happy going back to the ES. And thats why I said I would accept the turbo 4 and the lack of real leather to get a G80 if I were spending in the mid 50s, because it has that quality.
Yeah I don't know why they do that, they do it in Toyota models too. Its almost like they want you to feel the hard plastic. in my two ESs I had/have, 2003 and 2010 all the lower rent materials were well hidden, padded materials on the whole door, etc. Even my wife's 2004 Prius didn't have overtly cheap materials right in your face.
When I talk about the macpherson strut suspensions on Toyota derived FWD Lexus models, this is what you are experiencing here. Its the lack of sophistication in the front suspension setup vs what you are used to. It doesn't feel different from something like an Altima...because its not. There just isn't any wheel control in anything but flat pavement in a macpherson strut setup and that yields a ride that lacks sophistication compared to a car with a multilink or even a double wishbone front suspension. Thats another reason why anybody that goes from the LS to the ES and is happy never recognized or appreciated what makes the LS special in the first place.
Even though the LS500 is compromised compared to older LS models, it is still a much better car to drive than an ES, and much much nicer inside.
For $45-50k this car is a good option, for $55k? Its not IMO.
I'm convinced many that say the ES is bigger/why buy the LS have never driven an LS lol! This car would be SO much better with a turbo 4, I hate having to wind engines out to get a car moving.
I don't know about the material placement choices other than what you mentioned I also noticed. Older stuff tries quite hard to keep the hard plastic away from areas you will interact with.
As far as the suspension goes oh I know, I was just attempting to convey the difference in easy terms in case people haven't ever driven a double wishbone/multilink car lol! I will say after driving it up to my shop there is FAR less confidence, I was finding myself driving slower than normal in spite of the fact I was trying to replicate my normal speed for MPG comparison.
For this price I would not consider this car, it would have to be cheaper like you said and it would have to be a V6. Still won't solve the fact it's FWD.....the G80 is just outright a better drive.
Speaking of drive! Now that I've driven the car to my shop on roads I know extremely well I can comment on how it rode/handles. Unlike normally I could EASILY tell different pavement types and expansion joints were not hidden at all, there is a roundabout on the way up here and at an entry speed of only 30mph I got tire screech and plow. Mind you I usually enter at 50 and then brake down to 40ish and power out of this one......without tire complaints or rotation in the case of RWD.
In all turns and sweepers I could not comfortably maintain the same speeds I consider relaxed in any of my other cars. It was both hands on wheel and trying to sense what the ES wanted to do vs relaxed, three fingers and just letting the car move. There is zero chance I can get anywhere close to speeds I get when I'm trying in the other cars. I also couldn't emulate the same speeds I drive at since I simply don't trust the brakes and chassis to allow me to move how I know I can in the other cars if I need to. I also didn't do the usual pair of 100+ runs since it's just too underpowered and again, I don't trust the chassis.
Road noise was good, considering the class of car it's punching above its weight. Not as quiet as any of my flagships but still good.
MPG was severely underwhelming. I get almost the same out of my V8s and that's including the 100+ bursts and higher average speeds.
Really unimpressive. I usually get 24-25 in the V8s while having a much better drive
Overall it's an alright car. I would buy one used for around $6k-8kas a winter AWD snow sled since I know at the end of the day it's still a Lexus and I won't have problems. For certain people this would be a very practical, nice, quality car that won't have any looming fear of problems.
09-21-22, 09:04 AM
#7
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
I just realized this isn't a 2.0.....it's a 2.5! WTH!
Well now I'm going to be even more critical of this since that's insane it's that large of an engine for so little low end TQ. Heck I'm fairly sure my Jag 2.5 is a better engine performance wise and that's a fair comparison now. Lexus has GOT to add a turbo to this car.
Well now I'm going to be even more critical of this since that's insane it's that large of an engine for so little low end TQ. Heck I'm fairly sure my Jag 2.5 is a better engine performance wise and that's a fair comparison now. Lexus has GOT to add a turbo to this car.
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09-21-22, 10:16 AM
#8
Lexus Fanatic
Yeah I don't know why they do that, they do it in Toyota models too. Its almost like they want you to feel the hard plastic. in my two ESs I had/have, 2003 and 2010 all the lower rent materials were well hidden, padded materials on the whole door, etc. Even my wife's 2004 Prius didn't have overtly cheap materials right in your face.
As for the 2.5 … show me a better engine out there? One that is not turbo
09-21-22, 10:49 AM
#9
Lexus Fanatic
The weird thing is there isn't MORE hard plastic in the new one, its just where they chose to use it.
I don't think its a bad NA 4cyl, the car just shouldn't have a NA 4cyl. A NA 4cyl doesn't belong in any premium product.
I love black interiors, I've had a lot of them, but cheap black plastic looks worse than cheap ivory, tan or grey plastic. Thats why I got Parchment in my 2010 ES because the interior just looked a lot richer than it did in black. But my black interior 2003 ES and my LS400, LS430 and LS460L and my S Class are all black interiors and they are/were great
As for the 2.5 … show me a better engine out there? One that is not turbo
Originally Posted by Striker223
I figured it would be better in a gray or something, I like that black interiors wear well but they are very drab.
09-21-22, 11:47 AM
#10
I agree with the comment about the odd placement decision of hard vs. soft plastics. As a taller person, I find that the console pad entirely misses my knee, which is a design miss.
I do think a lot of the complaints about this car go to the flawed decision to build an ES version of the Camry AWD in the first place. I think the statement about this powertrain being unsuitable for a premium car is dead on, in both performance and NVH.
My previous car was an Acura RL with a V6 and torque-vectoring AWD. It's an unfair comparison just as the LS or G80 are, and for the same reason that after inflation it was a much higher-priced car, but the ES (even in 350 form) certainly doesn't inspire the same confidence to mindlessly turn the wheel and expect a precise cornering outcome no matter what you do. But I have learned that with good tires, the ES 350 does corner well with the giant asterisk that you have to understand you have to carry your speed into the corners and accelerate after you're out of them. You can carry speed very nicely on ramps and wide sweepers, but you need to come into them at the speed you want to maintain. It's the price of a family sedan chassis tuned for a luxurious ride. That said, I haven't had that "four pogo sticks" experience at all; I wonder if that problem is specific to the version burdened with the extra driveshafts.
When I was shopping my car, the ES 250 AWD had just come out. My salesman, a genial and candid experienced type, openly expressed his incredulity and disappointment that Lexus made the much-requested AWD feature available only with a four-banger. This review proves again that he was right.
I do think a lot of the complaints about this car go to the flawed decision to build an ES version of the Camry AWD in the first place. I think the statement about this powertrain being unsuitable for a premium car is dead on, in both performance and NVH.
My previous car was an Acura RL with a V6 and torque-vectoring AWD. It's an unfair comparison just as the LS or G80 are, and for the same reason that after inflation it was a much higher-priced car, but the ES (even in 350 form) certainly doesn't inspire the same confidence to mindlessly turn the wheel and expect a precise cornering outcome no matter what you do. But I have learned that with good tires, the ES 350 does corner well with the giant asterisk that you have to understand you have to carry your speed into the corners and accelerate after you're out of them. You can carry speed very nicely on ramps and wide sweepers, but you need to come into them at the speed you want to maintain. It's the price of a family sedan chassis tuned for a luxurious ride. That said, I haven't had that "four pogo sticks" experience at all; I wonder if that problem is specific to the version burdened with the extra driveshafts.
When I was shopping my car, the ES 250 AWD had just come out. My salesman, a genial and candid experienced type, openly expressed his incredulity and disappointment that Lexus made the much-requested AWD feature available only with a four-banger. This review proves again that he was right.
09-21-22, 11:59 AM
#12
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
09-21-22, 12:08 PM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Show me the NA I4 that compares to the 2.5 engine? Where is it…coupled with awd…28 MPG combined and regular fuel. 200+ HP. In a sedan with 100+ cubic feet of interior room.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 09-21-22 at 12:19 PM.
09-21-22, 12:25 PM
#14
Racer
Excellent post. Thanks for the review.
09-21-22, 12:36 PM
#15
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
The only reason I had an ES was because I requested one Monday when I scheduled the alignment. The other 10? Loaners that they had lined up and waiting were all SUVs of some sort, mostly the last gen RX and two NXs I think.