Why Few Hybrids from Non-Toyota
01-28-23, 11:24 AM
#1
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Why Few Hybrids from Non-Toyota
Why are the non-Toyota car makers rare with the hybrids? It seems like they are betting on all electric or continued gas cars. If you ask me, Toyota has it right with hybrids that get close to double the MPG with out the range anxiety and charging issues of all electric.
01-28-23, 12:31 PM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
Why are the non-Toyota car makers rare with the hybrids? It seems like they are betting on all electric or continued gas cars. If you ask me, Toyota has it right with hybrids that get close to double the MPG with out the range anxiety and charging issues of all electric.
01-28-23, 12:53 PM
#3
Because hybrids largely did not sell. The Prius was an exception, and now some newer Toyota offerings like the Lexus "h" and the RAV4 are getting top reviews. But who wants a Chevy hybrid? Nobody. So they are better off going directly to BEVs.
01-28-23, 01:24 PM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
Lincoln, several years ago, had the right idea when they gave the standard MKZ and MKZ hybrid sedans the same factory base-price. True, the MKZ sedans were not ultimately successful and were dropped, but that was not because of pricing...that was because buyers were shifting to crossovers.
01-28-23, 10:49 PM
#5
Moderator
Toyota did not oust their CEO. Akio Toyoda progressed to COB. Just like his father Shoichiro Toyoda who became CEO of Toyota in 1982 then progressed to COB from 1992-1999. Akio has one son and I'm sure in the future he will become CEO of Toyota and progress to COB before retiring...
01-29-23, 03:54 AM
#7
Did you miss all the recent reports of Toyota scrambling to change their EV plans to catch up to Tesla?
Exclusive: Toyota scrambles for EV reboot with eye on Tesla
Exclusive: Toyota to outline 3-year EV plan changes to suppliers
Exclusive: Toyota scrambles for EV reboot with eye on Tesla
Exclusive: Toyota to outline 3-year EV plan changes to suppliers
Trending Topics
01-29-23, 05:52 AM
#8
Lexus Test Driver
01-29-23, 07:10 AM
#9
Lexus Fanatic
Toyota did not oust their CEO. Akio Toyoda progressed to COB. Just like his father Shoichiro Toyoda who became CEO of Toyota in 1982 then progressed to COB from 1992-1999. Akio has one son and I'm sure in the future he will become CEO of Toyota and progress to COB before retiring...
See above.
01-29-23, 07:16 AM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
The real problem is not Akio (he was correct), but the fact that the industry is simply rushing into electrics and converting too quickly. Not only that, but it has not been proved that carbon-emissions from industry and ICEs are actually the main force driving climate change....which, in truth, is occurring for several reasons. Today's ICE vehicles, for instance, generate, on average, only 1% of the emissions per vehicle that the cars I grew up with in the 1960s did.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-30-23 at 09:45 PM.
01-29-23, 07:18 AM
#12
Lexus Fanatic
From the Reuters article about Akio stepping down:
This has everything to do with EVs
TOKYO, Jan 26 (Reuters) - Toyota's chief executive will step down as head of the company his grandfather founded, the automaker said on Thursday, handing over to the leader of its Lexus luxury brand as the Japanese giant struggles to meet the shift to electric vehicles.
Under the 66-year-old Toyoda, who led the company for more than a decade, the automaker has appeared reluctant to embrace electric vehicles, arguing the hybrid technology it pioneered with its once market-leading Prius was a better fit for many drivers.
That insistence on hybrids and hydrogen also prompted criticism from investors and environmental activists who once widely praised Toyota's technology and emissions record.
"No doubt Mr. Toyoda has been a competent CEO, but the whole auto sector needs to make disruptive change and Toyota has been lagging in this in our view, so this could be chance for a fresh start," said Anders Schelde, chief investment officer of Danish pension fund AkademikerPension, which has repeatedly pressed Toyota to accelerate its shift to electric vehicles.
"No doubt Mr. Toyoda has been a competent CEO, but the whole auto sector needs to make disruptive change and Toyota has been lagging in this in our view, so this could be chance for a fresh start," said Anders Schelde, chief investment officer of Danish pension fund AkademikerPension, which has repeatedly pressed Toyota to accelerate its shift to electric vehicles.
"The CEO needs youth, energy, strength," Toyoda said, saying that he himself was now a "relic" of an older generation. In Sato, too, he said, he had chosen a fellow car aficionado.
01-30-23, 08:21 PM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Why are the non-Toyota car makers rare with the hybrids? It seems like they are betting on all electric or continued gas cars. If you ask me, Toyota has it right with hybrids that get close to double the MPG with out the range anxiety and charging issues of all electric.
Also, Toyota does really well in making certain vehicles for certain markets. For example, all of the US volume products are made locally and close. Tacoma, Tundra, Sequoia, Sienna as well as Highlander, RAV4, Camry and Corolla, Corolla Cross are all made in North America. Now the NX and RX are made in Canada for the North American markets. Toyotas strategy is to build volume where they sell them. Economies of scale is so important
The Japan made models are usually the higher ends products. 4Runner/GX/Prado as well as Land Cruiser and LX are made in Japan for the world markets. You’ve got all the higher priced battery plug in coming from Japan. Now you have the bZ4X and RZ as well as the FCEV model that comes from Japan.
Toyota sold 10.3 million cars in 2022. They have a pretty smart strategy. Personally I don’t really care for Toyota hybrid or battery EVs. I find the FCEV interesting, but at the end of the day, I would rather just have a plan old gas vehicle
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 01-30-23 at 08:26 PM.
01-30-23, 09:34 PM
#14
Most other manufacturers slap on a 24/48v ISG system, a "plug-in" (early ones had especially pathetic range) or a single electric motor somewhere in the transmission. Toyota's hybrids are pretty much an effort to extract maximum efficiency from an ICE - they always overexpand (late intake valve closing + very high compression - atkinson) and use the battery as a torque fill device. No turbos since there's practically no waste exhaust pressure to drive them in the first place.
Some early Lexus hybrids used "regular" engines (almost - slightly wider intake VVT-i range, able to close later, but compression rations were nowhere near the ~13:1 norm for their regular hybrids) with their hybrid system, resulting in improvements to city / low speed / stop and go mileage but no improvements in highway fuel economy. Notably - rx400h, gs450h (3rd gen), ls600h.
Anyways, excluding Ford (that practically used the same hybrid system) and some specific other companies' models that used the THS, there weren't a whole lot of cars that used a similar system (GHC was definitely more capable, albeit more mechanically complicated than Toyota's simple PSD). Why - I have no clue. There are a few models that have a "permanently" overexpanding engine coupled to a regular automatic with an electric motor somewhere inside. Not as efficient as Toyota's stuff but for people that want gears - it's there and there are improvements.
Re: double the MPG - in highway conditions, more like, say, 20%-ish at the top range (modern adequate engines overexpand as much as possible anyways. Re: comparison to EVs - whatever floats your boat, they're still improving.
Some early Lexus hybrids used "regular" engines (almost - slightly wider intake VVT-i range, able to close later, but compression rations were nowhere near the ~13:1 norm for their regular hybrids) with their hybrid system, resulting in improvements to city / low speed / stop and go mileage but no improvements in highway fuel economy. Notably - rx400h, gs450h (3rd gen), ls600h.
Anyways, excluding Ford (that practically used the same hybrid system) and some specific other companies' models that used the THS, there weren't a whole lot of cars that used a similar system (GHC was definitely more capable, albeit more mechanically complicated than Toyota's simple PSD). Why - I have no clue. There are a few models that have a "permanently" overexpanding engine coupled to a regular automatic with an electric motor somewhere inside. Not as efficient as Toyota's stuff but for people that want gears - it's there and there are improvements.
Re: double the MPG - in highway conditions, more like, say, 20%-ish at the top range (modern adequate engines overexpand as much as possible anyways. Re: comparison to EVs - whatever floats your boat, they're still improving.
01-30-23, 09:50 PM
#15
Lexus Champion
The real problem is not Akio (he was correct), but the fact that the industry is simply rushing into electrics and converting too quickly. Not only that, but it has not been proved that carbon-emissions from industry and ICEs are actually the main force driving climate change....which, in truth, is occurring for several reasons. Today's ICE vehicles, for instance, generate, on average, only 1% of the emissions per vehicle that the cars I grew up with in the 1960s did.