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If you prefer the 460, why would you take a 500 then? The whole "can't be caught dead with anything more than 2-3 years old?"
I'll basically let Steve answer for himself on this one, but I will point out that he has said that he likes to have something with the latest safety features for his kids.
If you prefer the 460, why would you take a 500 then? The whole "can't be caught dead with anything more than 2-3 years old?"
Because I don't want an old car. I want CarPlay, I want lane centering and driving assist tech, I want massaging seats, I want the latest safety advancements...etc. I have no interest in buying a used car, don't want someone elses old car etc.
Now If I still had my LS460L, I wouldn't upgrade it to an LS500, but if I was buying one right now and those were my only options I would get a new LS500.
we know the LS500 isn't a winner in the u.s. at least. but if i had the choice today between an LS500 and a 10 year old LS460, i'd take the ls500, without any question. but we just see things differently. i find almost zero value in older versions of almost anything. i'm impressed my old washer/dryer still work though. and i know modern appliances typically don't last long. again, we're comparing longevity/maintenance and not feature/usage/experience.
A 2017 LS460 is worlds better an automobile than a 2018 LS500. I'm not talking about tech and the latest features. Car for car.
If you fundamentally just think nothing old has any value, or value can only be measured by money.....yeah I guess we don't think alike
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
rant away but the car companies had no choice but to comply.
an old 1990 E300 with it's trusty inline 6 might have been a great car in its day, but it was slower, probably louder, and had 177hp.
Ever experience a Mercedes V6 or I6? They're great. The late 90s E320 came with one that was very refined and plenty fast enough about 227hp. Nobody in their right mind (or a traditional Mercedes buyer) would choose a 2.0t over that, IMO at least. I drove a plenty, they were great.
And yes, I'm well aware this is all because of laws and regulations that were voted in. I'm sure Mercedes engineers cringe when they see their vehicles that look so good, powered by some garbage 4 cylinder. Enthusiasts like me sure do. I just wish we could work on the literal ten pounds of junk mail I receive per week first rather than ripping every good engine there is out there away.
You're about the only person I've ever heard that's fine with a 4 cylinder E300 and wouldn't want any other form of engine. It's not whisper quiet, it sounds like a typical awful sounding 4 banger when you get on it.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
i think it was you that mentioned appreciating ignition keys and that they 'feel safe'. i have no idea what that means, but they were certainly easier to steal and i don't want to carry keys with me if possible. my two cars each have a simple light fob or i can unlock and start them with my phone. the key may give you the feels, but there's no way it's 'better'.
You took this thread the wrong way and just couldn't be any further away from me and that's fine but I don't think you're getting what I said.
I said that in expensive cars, the keys and ignition cylinders were nice to use and felt properly expensive. LS430 the ignition lock, just using the key is extremely satisfying and expensive feeling, same with the Mercedes. In your average car it doesn't matter at all.
I had an LS430, the last year before the switchover to the LS460, and if given a choice between the LS430's physical key and being able to use my phone as the key (and not needing a physical key with you) I'd take the latter every time. Being able to use my phone to remotely turn on the AC or heat, either on a schedule or intelligently and automatically a few minutes before you normally get in and so many other genuinely beneficial features, well you can keep that old key...
A 2017 LS460 is worlds better an automobile than a 2018 LS500. I'm not talking about tech and the latest features. Car for car.
lol, you can't talk 'car for car' without taking tech and features into account. well you can, but it would be, uh, unusual.
it's like saying a blackberry's better than an iphone if you ignore the color touch screen, the music abilities, the ease of use, iMessages, and only compare them for phone calls and texts/messages.
If you fundamentally just think nothing old has any value, or value can only be measured by money.....yeah I guess we don't think alike
i didn't say anything about measuring things by money, please don't attribute things to me i didn't say / write.
Ever experience a Mercedes V6 or I6? They're great. The late 90s E320 came with one that was very refined and plenty fast enough about 227hp. Nobody in their right mind (or a traditional Mercedes buyer) would choose a 2.0t over that, IMO at least. I drove a plenty, they were great.
yes i did experience them, and they were great, BACK THEN. now they're crap.
I'm sure Mercedes engineers cringe when they see their vehicles that look so good, powered by some garbage 4 cylinder.
i'm sure you're wrong, lol.
You're about the only person I've ever heard that's fine with a 4 cylinder E300 and wouldn't want any other form of engine.
i didn't say/write that. if i wasn't clear, i'm just saying the 2.0T is not like some ancient 4 banger, it's highly refined, responsive, and smooth. now does it sound EXACTLY like a V6/I6/V8 under load? no, but does it sound terrible? no. again, it's not some simple 4 cylinder engine.
I said that in expensive cars, the keys and ignition cylinders were nice to use and felt properly expensive. LS430 the ignition lock, just using the key is extremely satisfying and expensive feeling, same with the Mercedes. In your average car it doesn't matter at all.
the lc500 fob feels very high quality. mine also came with the leather cover which is very nice. my hyundai santa fe fob is plasticky and cheap, but does the job.
to me, a key offers ZERO benefit and isn't any more 'satisfying' and doesn't feel more expensive.
I had an LS430, the last year before the switchover to the LS460, and if given a choice between the LS430's physical key and being able to use my phone as the key (and not needing a physical key with you) I'd take the latter every time. Being able to use my phone to remotely turn on the AC or heat, either on a schedule or intelligently and automatically a few minutes before you normally get in and so many other genuinely beneficial features, well you can keep that old key...
Yet another reason every person on the planet has a giant rectangular object consuming one of their entire pockets (and for the ladies, sticking half way out of the back of one of their jeans pockets)... gotta get on the phone and adjust the temp before getting in my car.
I literally couldn't imagine. I guess that makes me "out of touch", right?
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
lol, you can't talk 'car for car' without taking tech and features into account. well you can, but it would be, uh, unusual.
it's like saying a blackberry's better than an iphone if you ignore the color touch screen, the music abilities, the ease of use, iMessages, and only compare them for phone calls and texts/messages.
yes i did experience them, and they were great, BACK THEN. now they're crap.
the lc500 fob feels very high quality. mine also came with the leather cover which is very nice. my hyundai santa fe fob is plasticky and cheap, but does the job.
to me, a key offers ZERO benefit and isn't any more 'satisfying' and doesn't feel more expensive.
Few things here:
1) He's not meaning the tech, which is a given because obviously a newer car is going to have more of it. He means interior design, space that a flagship should have, feel of controls, driving dynamics that an LS should have, etc. I agree because that 14 LS460L I tested out last year is a much better car than a 19 LS I tested out (co-worker let me drive it a few months back) if you look past the meaningless (to me I suppose) tech and massaging seats that I really couldn't care less about. In every other objective measure, the 460 was the superior car. I don't know how anyone with a straight face can say otherwise.
2) Those older engines were much easier to work on, were more reliable and capable of going 300-400k miles, were smoother and sounded better. So the new E-Class with a 4-cylinder turbo goes 0-60 half a second faster than a 1999 E320? Oh my gosh, such an awful engine. It's okay though. That newer engine has no chance at lasting as long as the older one.
3) You say a key offers no benefit... what about going to park somewhere but you want to finish your favorite song or some kind of commentary on XM or whatever it is you do. With a key you can simply turn to ACC and audio keeps playing but engine turns off. Can't do that with a push button system. Also what about running outside to start a car on a 20 degree morning? You have a few items you throw in the passenger seat. Then since that door is open since it's closest to the house, you can start the car from that position. With a button you have to walk over to the drivers side, sit and press the brake then start. Not sure what capabilities you have on your phone or tablet or whatever to start from inside the house and activate the defroster but for 95% of drivers, having a key carries numerous benefits.
Yet another reason every person on the planet has a giant rectangular object consuming one of their entire pockets (and for the ladies, sticking half way out of the back of one of their jeans pockets)... gotta get on the phone and adjust the temp before getting in my car.
I literally couldn't imagine. I guess that makes me "out of touch", right?
Few things here:
2) Those older engines were much easier to work on, were more reliable and capable of going 300-400k miles, were smoother and sounded better. So the new E-Class with a 4-cylinder turbo goes 0-60 half a second faster than a 1999 E320? Oh my gosh, such an awful engine. It's okay though. That newer engine has no chance at lasting as long as the older one.
3) You say a key offers no benefit... what about going to park somewhere but you want to finish your favorite song or some kind of commentary on XM or whatever it is you do. With a key you can simply turn to ACC and audio keeps playing but engine turns off. Can't do that with a push button system. Also what about running outside to start a car on a 20 degree morning? You have a few items you throw in the passenger seat. Then since that door is open since it's closest to the house, you can start the car from that position. With a button you have to walk over to the drivers side, sit and press the brake then start. Not sure what capabilities you have on your phone or tablet or whatever to start from inside the house and activate the defroster but for 95% of drivers, having a key carries numerous benefits.
Being easier to work on was the immediate advantage I thought of as well. It's really tough in my GL to get access to things quickly as an amateur.
My GL has the pushbutton start, but keeps the radio on when you turn the engine off. It'll play for maybe a minute if you don't open the door. It's also from the pre-app era, and since I'm going to have my smartphone with me anyway I'd much rather be able to turn on the heat and defroster from my phone like a Tesla. Actually have this nuisance right now since my GL has been booted from the garage and doesn't even have remote start.
Transmission options. No boring, problematic CVTs, and the available option to choose manual or automatic for most cars. Most modern passenger cars, excluding sports cars and exotics, have 6-10 gear automatic transmissions or CVTs that are programmed to prioritize fuel economy. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that now you rarely get a choice.
Drive-by-wire vs. throttle cable is another one. I personally like the feel of a car that uses a throttle cable. Just feels more natural to me.
A 2017 LS460 is worlds better an automobile than a 2018 LS500. I'm not talking about tech and the latest features. Car for car.
If those were my only choices, I would take the LS460, but only because I actually fit in it. The fact that a 6'4" dude--who daily's a 2-generation-old compact luxury car--doesn't fit in a modern luxury flagship is offensive. If the LS500 had anywhere near the space that an ES350 does, I would take the newer car.
But in reality, I wouldn't buy either. It would be an S-Class, 7-series, or GV90.
3) You say a key offers no benefit... what about going to park somewhere but you want to finish your favorite song or some kind of commentary on XM or whatever it is you do. With a key you can simply turn to ACC and audio keeps playing but engine turns off. Can't do that with a push button system. Also what about running outside to start a car on a 20 degree morning? You have a few items you throw in the passenger seat. Then since that door is open since it's closest to the house, you can start the car from that position. With a button you have to walk over to the drivers side, sit and press the brake then start. Not sure what capabilities you have on your phone or tablet or whatever to start from inside the house and activate the defroster but for 95% of drivers, having a key carries numerous benefits.
This is nonsensical. Want ACC mode? push the button without stepping on the brake. Voila.
And as someone who has been the "remote starter" for several of my wife's cars, starting from the passenger side was never an option. You have to push the brake pedal regardless of whether you have an ignition cylinder or start/stop button, though I never actually get in the car to do so--just a light press of the fingers is enough. The last car we had without a brake interlock was built 25 years ago--and ironically, that one had a remote starter installed, since she bought it before we met and she gave me the job.
From the 2nd gen RX (2003-2008) manual:
Starting the engine
Check that the parking brake is set.
Check that the shift lever is set in P. Sit in the driver’s seat and firmly depress the brake pedal.
Turn the ignition key to the START position and start the
engine
Or you know, you could use some other advanced 1980s technology and have a remote starter installed. Even better, many cars now come with remote start from the factory.
A 2017 LS460 is worlds better an automobile than a 2018 LS500. I'm not talking about tech and the latest features. Car for car.
But tech and features are things that modern consumers take into account when they decide which car is the best car.
If I was already buying used and deciding between a 17 460 and an 18 500, I would choose the 460...but if comparing between a new LS500 and a used LS460 I would take the LS500. A big part of that is I just dont like used cars, but the tech is also a big part of that. I will never own another car without CarPlay, and I will never own another car without self driving technology for the highway. I had aftermarket carplay in my LS460L, but its not like OEM CarPlay, its buggy, phone call audio quality issues, etc. The LS500 also has the availability of lane centering which was not available on the LS460.
I'm very tempted to buy the Pacifica out of the lease and keep it for a few years, but the lack of lane centering is the primary reason why I don't want to do that.
A fun car like your SL500 is a different story, that I would buy used and lack of tech is fine, but in my primary car where I'm driving it every day and traveling in it, I want that technology.
Not perfectly ideal or well-known, but (at least on Toyota/Lexus products) you can start the car without your foot on the brake. You push the start button once and release it, to go into ACC mode, then push it again and hold it in. Takes about 10 seconds and the car will start. It's a little known work-around that I've used to start the car from the front passenger seat.
02-20-23, 08:07 PM
and i know modern appliances typically don't last long. again, we're comparing longevity/maintenance and not feature/usage/experience.
