SC Control Arm Bushings Available!!
08-18-02, 11:37 AM
#32
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Thanks for the Info
Hi Todd,
Thanks very much for answering my questions on symptoms and life expectancy. My SC was actually from the east (rock salt) so if the bushes look anything like the very rusted arms, they're ****ed! It is my opinion, and I'm a picky engineer type, that Todd's detailed and well written responses to this entire thread lead me to believe that his product will undoubtedly be the best available.
I will be ordering a set from you in the near future as I'm going to wait until summer is over to tackle this job.
Cheers,
James
Thanks very much for answering my questions on symptoms and life expectancy. My SC was actually from the east (rock salt) so if the bushes look anything like the very rusted arms, they're ****ed! It is my opinion, and I'm a picky engineer type, that Todd's detailed and well written responses to this entire thread lead me to believe that his product will undoubtedly be the best available.
I will be ordering a set from you in the near future as I'm going to wait until summer is over to tackle this job.
Cheers,
James
08-19-02, 03:52 AM
#33
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RE: Todd and new products...
I think it's very exciting to see a new product introduced into the Lexus line. As a Lexus owner, I myself would very much like to see new aftermarket parts that are top quality.
Sometimes introductions of a new player/product is met with a lot of initial questions and skepticism. However, as you can see from a lot of the posts in this thread that reputation plays a very important part towards gaining comfort and confidence. A lot of us SoCal guys have brought our work to Todd and have found him to be very straight up and decent both in his honesty at diagnosing any problem as well as his very good high quality of service. I would trust him over the Lexus dealer any day. He is extremely knowledgeable not only in Lexus vehicles but all kinds of various manufacturers and brands. But he has always told me that Lexus is his first love and especially the SC.
Because of what I have seen in his high quality work, I have also seen that he has that same sense of high quality in his judgment of parts. Besides, it looks like he already has had a few customers that have purchased this bushing kit.
Personally, I would much rather have someone I know and trust to suggest a good quality part rather going to the vender themselves. Why? Because Todd is in the trenches working on Lexus cars for years and years now so why would he try to sell crap and ruin his own reputation? That makes a lot of sense to me...
Todd, please let me know when the sway bars for the GS400 become available. I want a set to try on ASAP!
As for ToyLexmod...If you feel comfortable buying Whiteline - well then enjoy them! Ignorance is bliss!
But here is a word of caution: Don't knock 'em until you've actually tried them! Otherwise, you don't look so good and you might just **** of someone that could have helped you sometime in the future! I know Todd has saved me from a lot of mistakes purchasing low quality parts!
Brent
Sometimes introductions of a new player/product is met with a lot of initial questions and skepticism. However, as you can see from a lot of the posts in this thread that reputation plays a very important part towards gaining comfort and confidence. A lot of us SoCal guys have brought our work to Todd and have found him to be very straight up and decent both in his honesty at diagnosing any problem as well as his very good high quality of service. I would trust him over the Lexus dealer any day. He is extremely knowledgeable not only in Lexus vehicles but all kinds of various manufacturers and brands. But he has always told me that Lexus is his first love and especially the SC.
Because of what I have seen in his high quality work, I have also seen that he has that same sense of high quality in his judgment of parts. Besides, it looks like he already has had a few customers that have purchased this bushing kit.
Personally, I would much rather have someone I know and trust to suggest a good quality part rather going to the vender themselves. Why? Because Todd is in the trenches working on Lexus cars for years and years now so why would he try to sell crap and ruin his own reputation? That makes a lot of sense to me...
Todd, please let me know when the sway bars for the GS400 become available. I want a set to try on ASAP!
As for ToyLexmod...If you feel comfortable buying Whiteline - well then enjoy them! Ignorance is bliss!
But here is a word of caution: Don't knock 'em until you've actually tried them! Otherwise, you don't look so good and you might just **** of someone that could have helped you sometime in the future! I know Todd has saved me from a lot of mistakes purchasing low quality parts!
Brent
Last edited by BLiu; 08-19-02 at 12:15 PM.
08-19-02, 06:09 PM
#34
Racer
How involved is a DIY bushing replacement?
An interesting thread...
Xavier- how much of a job was it to replace the bushings? Those are some serious nuts and bolts down there- were they easy to remove?
MW- I'm wondering why it would be necessary to get another alignment once they are replaced. If the car was in decent alignment before the replacement, and the new bushings now have less play, the car is in the same or better alignment than it was, not worse.
Xavier- how much of a job was it to replace the bushings? Those are some serious nuts and bolts down there- were they easy to remove?
MW- I'm wondering why it would be necessary to get another alignment once they are replaced. If the car was in decent alignment before the replacement, and the new bushings now have less play, the car is in the same or better alignment than it was, not worse.
Last edited by PERRYinLA; 08-19-02 at 06:44 PM.
08-20-02, 02:12 AM
#35
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The lower control arm bushing or at least one of them are where the camber adjustment is. If you change the bushing. You will have to readjust the camber again. I am talking about the front . I did not look at the back if, it is the same or not. That is my guess.
Last edited by black sc; 08-20-02 at 02:12 AM.
08-20-02, 02:57 AM
#36
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What he said. Anytime you mess with the arms, shocks, springs, or anyother geomerty oriented part, you can mark the locations are carefully reinstall it back to where it was...however the new bushing, shock, or spring will always tend to alter the setup and make it necessary to get it re-aligned.
I am super meticulous about the alignment of my cars. Most people if they are careful will never bother.
MW
Anytime you mess with the arms, shocks, springs, or anyother geomerty oriented part, you can mark the locations are carefully reinstall it back to where it was...however the new bushing, shock, or spring will always tend to alter the setup and make it necessary to get it re-aligned.I am super meticulous about the alignment of my cars. Most people if they are careful will never bother.
MW
08-27-02, 05:38 PM
#37
interesting read.
i think there's a bit of misunderstanding on both sides. we don't have to take sides here, it's just a few questions and answers to get more informative and knowledgable. chill out and welcome the new product in the lexus line.
everything sounds reasonable and good to me
only two concerns left for me before I buy:
1. how many people has already had these bushings installed. what are their reactions (performance, reliabilty and install wise).
2. i know i cant do the job myself. since i'm getting spring/shocks, I can get a shop to install the bushings also. how much more work would it be (it was originall gonna cost around $200 for spring/shocks, how much now). also, does the bushings require more skill to install than average? do i need to find a specialized suspension shop or can an avg performance shop do this install w/ no problem?
-----------------
holy crap, i just called my local performance shop and asked them about installation of bushings. He said it would require removing each of the suspension pieces and is ALOT of work and will cost at least $600-700 to install. He said the part itself is only around $100 but the work is in the installation and unless $ is no object for me and I'm trying to build a race car, it's probably one mod that's not worth it.
He also quoted me about $500 to install a sway bar.
i think there's a bit of misunderstanding on both sides. we don't have to take sides here, it's just a few questions and answers to get more informative and knowledgable. chill out and welcome the new product in the lexus line.
everything sounds reasonable and good to me
only two concerns left for me before I buy:
1. how many people has already had these bushings installed. what are their reactions (performance, reliabilty and install wise).
2. i know i cant do the job myself. since i'm getting spring/shocks, I can get a shop to install the bushings also. how much more work would it be (it was originall gonna cost around $200 for spring/shocks, how much now). also, does the bushings require more skill to install than average? do i need to find a specialized suspension shop or can an avg performance shop do this install w/ no problem?
-----------------
holy crap, i just called my local performance shop and asked them about installation of bushings. He said it would require removing each of the suspension pieces and is ALOT of work and will cost at least $600-700 to install. He said the part itself is only around $100 but the work is in the installation and unless $ is no object for me and I'm trying to build a race car, it's probably one mod that's not worth it.
He also quoted me about $500 to install a sway bar.
Last edited by Legends6spd; 08-27-02 at 06:27 PM.
08-27-02, 07:00 PM
#38
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hey Legend,
That is laughs..
Not sure about your shop, don't know them, only you do. However, that is a joke. If you pull down the springs and struts..pulling the lower control arm is not that much more work.. However, the real time and effort is spent on the R&R (removal and replacement) of the bushing into the arm. I would say that the jon would take an extra couple of hours if you already have the struts out. Additional $120 or so is reasonable.
On the sway bar.. LOL
"He also quoted me about $500 to install a sway bar."
$500 to bolt on a sway bar.....that is way too much.
That is laughs..
Not sure about your shop, don't know them, only you do. However, that is a joke. If you pull down the springs and struts..pulling the lower control arm is not that much more work.. However, the real time and effort is spent on the R&R (removal and replacement) of the bushing into the arm. I would say that the jon would take an extra couple of hours if you already have the struts out. Additional $120 or so is reasonable.
On the sway bar.. LOL
"He also quoted me about $500 to install a sway bar."
$500 to bolt on a sway bar.....that is way too much.
08-27-02, 07:15 PM
#39
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Yes, these are quite labor intensive to install, we charge 400-500 on the labor side.
The job itself is not really all that hard to do, just time consuming. The worst part is actually removing the original rubber bushings and cleaning the shells, as they need to be clean to bare metal before the new ones can be installed if they are to work properly.
We charge 100 for sway bar installation, so I think this guy is just trying to gouge you for something that he has never done before. If they are decent techs, they can do the job though. I wouldn't pay more than 500 for labor though.
As far as the cost vs benefit vs part value, this is just something that has a lot of labor to install. A timing belt is like 60 bucks, but you will end up spending 500 or more to change it. Silly in concept? Yes. Necessary? Yes too! These bushings WILL fail 100% of the time though, and this is truly the only permanent solution. It is also an upgrade, and when you put it into perspective that just ONE of the lower arms is $500 (without any labor!) then this is not as extreme of an upgrade as you might originally think.
If you really don't have the cash to spend, then don't do it. The only bad thing is if the bushing really starts to take a dump, you will have some pretty bad steering, alignment and tire wear problems, as the arm will basically be floating loose. This is a pretty dangerous situation, but I think if you ever got to this point you'd be scared enough to do something about it.
The one thing with car stuff is that when things wear out, whether it's shocks, tires, bushings, seats, wipers, whatever, it's gradual and you don't even realize how bad it was until you get a brand new replacement. Then you wonder how the heck you even tolerated it all that time! This is the same situation with these bushings, but I will bet the farm (I actually don't have a farm
) that you will be amazed at how "new" the suspension will feel and how much more responsive and precise the turning and handling will be.
We've moved quite a few sets already, so I'm sure someone out there will have some input soon that you can read about. (I heard that Clint at PHR installed some on his turbo SC300 and I believe they also will be selling them soon. Not sure what his comments are on the parts, but I'm pretty sure they will be positive).
On the original note, if you are already having your springs/shocks installed, then the labor should be less by about 150 at least, as you have to remove the upper arms anyways to do the front springs/shocks. If you deal with this shop regularly, I'd try to see if they can do the whole package labor for like 600, that's a very reasonable price.
The work is messy and time consuming though, which is probably why your shop doesn't want to do it. If they are recommending against doing it, I'd just go somewhere else. You will never get good work on something that someone doesn't want to do, especially if it something they don't understand the purpose of.
Most shops don't understand what these bushings are for or what they actually do, because they've never done them. If this is the case, maybe you aren't dealing with the right place.
The hardness on these bushings is of a softer compound than normal, so it's not like you are putting some hard-riding parts in the car.
You would indeed need an alignment when you are done, but I'm sure it is something that can wait a week or two or maybe even longer. I always recommend to wait at least a week for the springs to settle in completely, then go for a GOOD alignment. If you can cause any significant tire wear in that short of a time, then you've got some other serious issues.
If there's anything else you need help with, feel free to email me directly, todd@tmengineering.net
Todd Matsubara
TM Engineering LLC
The job itself is not really all that hard to do, just time consuming. The worst part is actually removing the original rubber bushings and cleaning the shells, as they need to be clean to bare metal before the new ones can be installed if they are to work properly.
We charge 100 for sway bar installation, so I think this guy is just trying to gouge you for something that he has never done before. If they are decent techs, they can do the job though. I wouldn't pay more than 500 for labor though.
As far as the cost vs benefit vs part value, this is just something that has a lot of labor to install. A timing belt is like 60 bucks, but you will end up spending 500 or more to change it. Silly in concept? Yes. Necessary? Yes too! These bushings WILL fail 100% of the time though, and this is truly the only permanent solution. It is also an upgrade, and when you put it into perspective that just ONE of the lower arms is $500 (without any labor!) then this is not as extreme of an upgrade as you might originally think.
If you really don't have the cash to spend, then don't do it. The only bad thing is if the bushing really starts to take a dump, you will have some pretty bad steering, alignment and tire wear problems, as the arm will basically be floating loose. This is a pretty dangerous situation, but I think if you ever got to this point you'd be scared enough to do something about it.
The one thing with car stuff is that when things wear out, whether it's shocks, tires, bushings, seats, wipers, whatever, it's gradual and you don't even realize how bad it was until you get a brand new replacement. Then you wonder how the heck you even tolerated it all that time! This is the same situation with these bushings, but I will bet the farm (I actually don't have a farm
) that you will be amazed at how "new" the suspension will feel and how much more responsive and precise the turning and handling will be.We've moved quite a few sets already, so I'm sure someone out there will have some input soon that you can read about. (I heard that Clint at PHR installed some on his turbo SC300 and I believe they also will be selling them soon. Not sure what his comments are on the parts, but I'm pretty sure they will be positive).
On the original note, if you are already having your springs/shocks installed, then the labor should be less by about 150 at least, as you have to remove the upper arms anyways to do the front springs/shocks. If you deal with this shop regularly, I'd try to see if they can do the whole package labor for like 600, that's a very reasonable price.
The work is messy and time consuming though, which is probably why your shop doesn't want to do it. If they are recommending against doing it, I'd just go somewhere else. You will never get good work on something that someone doesn't want to do, especially if it something they don't understand the purpose of.
Most shops don't understand what these bushings are for or what they actually do, because they've never done them. If this is the case, maybe you aren't dealing with the right place.
The hardness on these bushings is of a softer compound than normal, so it's not like you are putting some hard-riding parts in the car.
You would indeed need an alignment when you are done, but I'm sure it is something that can wait a week or two or maybe even longer. I always recommend to wait at least a week for the springs to settle in completely, then go for a GOOD alignment. If you can cause any significant tire wear in that short of a time, then you've got some other serious issues.
If there's anything else you need help with, feel free to email me directly, todd@tmengineering.net
Todd Matsubara
TM Engineering LLC
Last edited by DoubleWhoosh; 08-27-02 at 07:19 PM.
08-28-02, 12:22 AM
#40
Todd,
I think you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. I really don't think the shop was trying to gouge me. He really explained to me the details of what each mod would do and he was really nice and honest about it. It's not that it's a hard job for the bushings, it's just that it's very time consuming... like you said. They probably have not done much of it before and it's not a work they really wanna do so they charge accordingly. As for the swaybar, i think the $500 he mentioned was for the shox/springs all together which seems fair to me.
I think when I saw your $99 price, I was like whoa, why not?! Especially since I'm doing suspension work already. I think it's definitely going to be an improvement. I've got the $, but I also want to get a fair shake so I'll look around for someone to do a complete package.
So far, I'm impressed with all that you have said. Can you give me a little advice. I'm currently gettin Eibach Pro Kit and Tokico shocks. Would you recommend that? Along with your bushings should that be sufficient for a suspension upgrade (without compromising too much of the comfort). What would you get and why?
I think you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. I really don't think the shop was trying to gouge me. He really explained to me the details of what each mod would do and he was really nice and honest about it. It's not that it's a hard job for the bushings, it's just that it's very time consuming... like you said. They probably have not done much of it before and it's not a work they really wanna do so they charge accordingly. As for the swaybar, i think the $500 he mentioned was for the shox/springs all together which seems fair to me.
I think when I saw your $99 price, I was like whoa, why not?! Especially since I'm doing suspension work already. I think it's definitely going to be an improvement. I've got the $, but I also want to get a fair shake so I'll look around for someone to do a complete package.
So far, I'm impressed with all that you have said. Can you give me a little advice. I'm currently gettin Eibach Pro Kit and Tokico shocks. Would you recommend that? Along with your bushings should that be sufficient for a suspension upgrade (without compromising too much of the comfort). What would you get and why?
Last edited by Legends6spd; 08-28-02 at 12:24 AM.
08-29-02, 01:22 PM
#41
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...
I think a lot of shops hear the word Lexus and dollar signs pop up in their eyes. I think there is a stigma that most Lexus owners are clueless when it comes to the mechanics of their cars. This is probably true in general(with the exception of those on this site).
I'd be curious to hear reviews from anyone that has installed the control arm bushings as well.
I'd be curious to hear reviews from anyone that has installed the control arm bushings as well.
09-04-02, 03:55 AM
#42
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Originally posted by Legends6spd
So far, I'm impressed with all that you have said. Can you give me a little advice. I'm currently gettin Eibach Pro Kit and Tokico shocks. Would you recommend that? Along with your bushings should that be sufficient for a suspension upgrade (without compromising too much of the comfort). What would you get and why?
So far, I'm impressed with all that you have said. Can you give me a little advice. I'm currently gettin Eibach Pro Kit and Tokico shocks. Would you recommend that? Along with your bushings should that be sufficient for a suspension upgrade (without compromising too much of the comfort). What would you get and why?
On the bushings, since they are a softer durometer compound, they shouldn't be too bad, and would be a pretty good setup in conjunction with the above shocks and springs. The only drawback of course is the labor, but to do the shocks you need to take quite a bit apart anyways, so it's not really that bad.
09-09-02, 06:20 PM
#43
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control arm bushings
I just purchased and installed the front lower bushings supplied by Todd at TMengineering in a '93 sc300. This kit is a great solution for the control arm bushing problem. I only installed the lowers, the project took about five hours total. The toughest part is removing tho old bushings and cleaning the control arms. My neighbor had a ball joint tool sourced from Honda that was essential in removing the arms the job would have been tougher without this tool. He bought the tool for under $100. I can't say enough good things about the way Todd helped and the kit itself worked great. I don't feel any difference in ride quality, but the nose of the car doesn't dive as much during hard breaking. We calso own a '94 sc300 with stock bushings in place, they are still OK at 80,000 miles but I will use Todd's kit again when they go.
Thanks Todd!
Thanks Todd!
09-09-02, 07:15 PM
#44
When I installed shocks/springs awhile back,I noticed that the control arms swung pretty easily,yet,when I smacked the part with a nylon mallet,there was no slop; pretty sweet,no bind there.
What are the stock bushings made out of?
What are the stock bushings made out of?