IS-SV

The CT 200h is a bold move for Lexus, IMO.

DustinV

If the German cars that I've owned had issues, I would report them here. But I've had no problems with mine. None at all. No electrical glitches, no malfunctioning radio etc. Nothing.

You claim that "super German car fans" say their cars have no issues. Well, I've got news for you. The same can be said for "super Japanese car fans". It is in our nature to exaggerate.


If you ask me, I think the unreliability of European cars is greatly exaggerated. They might not be as reliable as a whole as a Toyota/Lexus, but the myth that they're in the shop 365 days a year is nothing more than a myth. Every brand has lemons and yes, there was a time when some of the major European premium manufacturers had a bad spell, but it seems these days are gone. I don't see much difference in the latest JD Power reliability statistics since one particular model can ruin the placing for a whole brand.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but in one of the last JD Power reliability statistics I seem to recall an average of 4.5 problems per year for an average Lexus and 5.5 for an average Mercedes. So what's the difference?


And I personally know many German car owners here and back home that have no issues or no major issues with their cars. Some of them I know I better than others but like I said, people tend to exaggerate. And that goes for fans of all car brands.


There are Toyota and Lexus products out there that have been less than stellar, too. There are other Lexus forums out there other than Club Lexus. And cars are complex machines - things can go wrong, even on a Lexus.


Oh, and Top Gear is a show/magazine just like Auto Motor und Sport. The graph that was presented showed a decline in Toyota reliability and rise in VW and Mercedes reliability. Keep in mind that these are the experiences of readers of this particular magazine. Now, correct me if I am wrong but I have seen many posters here on this forum describe their disappointment with certain Toyota products claiming "they are not like the older ones". The general consensus and admittance here is that Toyota quality/reliability has slipped somewhat.

Furthermore, I enjoy reading the 100,000 km tests featured in every Auto Motor und Sport magazine (when I buy them, which is rarely). If you think this magazine is biased, guess again. I've seen their report on the first-generation M class which honestly described the poor quality and variety of problems the car experienced during their 100,000 km test. They recently tested an Audi Q7 for 100,000 km and it wasn't perfect either. At the same time, the current Mercedes ML350 did quite well in the 100,000 km test. I've seen plenty of Japanese cars win over European products in this magazine, too. I don't know about you, but I'm here, I have the magazine(s) in my hand and they do strike me as being objective.

LexFather

^^^ I think at this point lets both get back to the CT.

spwolf

dude, i have lived in Europe for all my life. I understand what you are saying, you just have smaller part of the picture than me, since I was reading AMS and Autobild for past 20 years ;-).

So...

- There will be no Lexus car with manual AC like you have with germans... same goes for other basic options. You will be able to get A1 with 82hp engine. That wont happen with Lexus.
- When Toyota buyers need luxuriously equipped car, they can get luxuriously equipped Toyota. It is almost impossible to upgrade to Lexus, as pricing is so different due to taxing and customs. But yes, many Toyota owners do look at Lexus with awe... they just dont have money or dont want big gas engines. With hybrids, that will change.
- Yes, Lexus plans to double the sales with CT200h... from 28k to >50k. It is not a lot at all. But CT200h base will be at pricing and equipment level of mid A3's and mid 1 series. Lexus does not have barebone versions as germans.
- You should read german quality studies if you are in Germany. Autobild has the most comprenhensive one and ties in many different things (TUV, ADAC, reader surveys, their own tests, etc). Toyota has been 1-3 in past decade at least. Germans do not score that well there. VW in particular has been between 10th and 15th place for past 3-4 years. BMW is best rated German, improving to 4th place last time, and MB is 8-10th usually.
- Toyota had most cars in state TUV tests for 2010, announced few weeks ago. There were 15 Toyota cars in top 10 lists, and only 3 VW's.


There are also some other issues when it comes to selling in German market... one of the problems for Toyota and Lexus is that >60% sales in last years have been to business fleets, with average discount of 30%. Thats why you have so many used Audi's and BMW's clogging the market at low prices. Lexus does not do fleet sales in Europe at all, and Toyota's largerst discount is 10% for fleets.

Most of the A4's and 3 series sold in germany are sold as company cars. It has to do with taxing and is pretty normal in Europe.

pagemaster

http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/gal..._itemId=159578

I have to say, while I think the design of the interior is impressive. This is just a really bad pic of the interior.....it looks a little drab. I do love the interior design

Och

iTrader: (3)

Has the pricing been released yet?

spwolf

europeans like their interiors in black.

spwolf

probably wont be announced in another 4-5 months ;-).

Och

iTrader: (3)

I hope they dont overprice it like they did with the HS.

SLegacy99

It seems likely that they would price it right around $30k.

(Cj)

Well since they're going to have leatherette seating trim, the price will be a lower than at least what I expected it to be.

The HS costs like $3500 more than a comparable Camry hybrid, so if the CT costs $3500 more than a comparable Prius, it'd be like $28K. The HS will probably get leatherette seating at it's refresh in a couple of years, and the base price may end up being a little lower ($32K maybe?).

spwolf

who knows... i have no idea what to expect from price in Europe. Hybrids are expensive.

"Base" Prius is 25k Euros here (our base Prius is mid level US Prius)... Base IS220d is 30k Euros here.

So there is not much space for pricing to be great. I hope for somewhere in the middle.

RXSF

i dont remember the last time a moonroof was an option on a lexus...

pagemaster

I am not convinced that the HS250 will make to a refresh, I can see Lexus bringing out an ES hybrid which would takes its place if it gets cut

LexFather

Your comments about the HS are b/c you don't like it and nowhere based in reality. There has never been a Lexus to not make a refresh you cannot be remotely serious. As a matter of fact the only Lexus that has ever been discontinued is the IS sportcross. If they don't do well in the first generation, Lexus truly revamps them for success (1GS to 2GS is a great example).

Car companies do not cancel cars in 3 years. Even Infiniti/Acura who have more discontinued cars than anyone tried for years until they realized their vehicle was a failure (M30, G20 twice, J30, Q45, I35, SLX, CL, NSX).

The ES is a substantially bigger car and goes after a different market than the HS.

Now can we talk about the CT and not beat the HS in Another thread b/c you don't like it? Thanks.