blksolara

Update: I paid $2000 for a used engine. 60K miles and $850 labor to swap. So for a total of almost $3K. Location: LA.

jimmyc13

Damn, you're ahead of me. They finally found me another engine to try, from a 2011 Prius with 71K miles on it. You got a great deal on your labor, that's great! Good luck with it.

blksolara

Update. Just got my car back. Running good. The shop did find previous damage from original owner. The assumption is that they run over something which caused a leak in the radiator. Most likely, the car overheated and damaged the engine. The original owner must of minimally repaired it and sold it to Carmax. Because of that accident, there is some damage and movement of my cross member with my ac compressor pressed up against the radiator fan. My shop told me that this can be a problem if not fixed given that the components move during driving. At worst case, the compressor could fail or affect the fan. Moving forward, I plan to take the seller to small claims court to hold them accountable for all these expenses.

chargerfan

iTrader: (2)

who would be liable? car max? for not finding out?

or the prev owner, for hiding all this?

E46CT

It'll all depend on how good of a case you can present. Judge can rule in anyones favor, even if the law doesn't support his decision. happens all the time.

Carmax would have had to know about the damage at the time of sale to be responsible. Obviously they didn't. All they have to do is present the opportunity that the damage could've occurred during the buyer's watch.

Buyer can assert that a reasonable pre-sale inspection should've identified the problems with the car.

Seems like a coin toss to me but the buyer has a shot.

I wouldn't get all huffy and "lawyerly" just yet. Be nice to Carmax, talk to the manager. Ask to work something out. Tell them you disagree with their position and that to protect your interests, you may have to initiate a small claims action but that you'd rather resolve this privately. be nice--don't be a jerk. you'd be suprised how far that can get you in some cases!

lexusrus

What about CarMax's 30-day limited warranty and 5-day money back guarantee as advertised on its website? (Longer in some States).

blksolara

to clarify, i did not purchase the car from carmax. The seller who is a used car reseller purchased it from a carmax auction. They buy excess inventory from Carmax and flip them. They represented the car as in good working condition with no accidents. The very first day I drove the car home, the check engine light came on. I called the seller the next day and he assured me it was noting; most likely a coil that needed to be replaced. I purchased new coils and a week later had them installed. The issue persisted, I did some research online and I took it to the dealership for the TSB issue. After 2 weeks at the dealer, they replaced the EGR valve for free but recommended I look at the gasket citing a $6000 expense. I was horrified as I paid only $8000 for the car. Another $6000 would be out of my budget. I went back to the seller for help who once again reassured me that it is not the gasket and that the dealer just wanted to make money off me. He went on to claim that the warranty service he provided me would cover any repairs if any. From there, I continued to drive the car with mild engine shutters during start. My coolant depleted over time because of the faulty gasket and at this time, I took it to a shop where they confirmed that it's a blown gasket. I reached out to the seller to have him work with the warranty service company but it turns out they wont cover anything. A did a online search on that warranty company; Alpha, and they get horrid reviews; basically fake coverage where they do everything they can not to cover any expenses. I tell the seller that he needs to find a way to make it right and help me. A few days later, he stop's taking my calls. Since then, I have spent out of pocket another $3200 which has put me in debt and impacted my savings. I will be reporting them to BBB and taking the seller to small claims court.

jimmyc13

I wanted to provide an update on my engine swap. I had 2 different used prius engines shipped to the shop where my car is, both low miles (52K and 70K). The shop did an air test (I think they added 100 psi) to each motor and each motor showed issues/leaks which would likely lead to compression issues. The 52K motor only had the issue in one of the cylinders. I am going to keep the 52K motor (in only paid $1700 plus tax) and have him rebuild the top/fix the compression issue and put a new head gasket on/replane it. The rebuild cost alone adds $1K to the total job and somehow the company that sold me the used engine is going to give me a $1K refund due to the issue! I think that was generous of them, my shop said they could still sell it and get the full $ for it.

Fingers crossed this is it for me.

yeldogt

Reading over this thread is a bit depressing. The engine in the CT being the same as Gen 3 Prius -- it has the same EGR pathways. Exhaust gases are recycled back to the engine intake -- this is employed to change combustion characteristics -- lowering emissions. Since the gasses coming from the exhaust are at a higher temp vs what is ideal, Toyota uses a cooler to lower the temps. This cooler is connected to the exhaust prior to the EGR valve and uses engine coolant as the transfer.

There are many issues with this system over time. The cooler eventually coats with soot -- lowering it's efficiency and raising the EGR gas recirculation temps. The soot travels into the valve causing erratic operation and eventual failure. Additionally, this soot flows into the intake manifold where the small passageways to each intake port are located -- the soot eventually compromises the pathways ... unequally -- causing different combustion characteristics in the engine (IE -- Misfire)

This is no mystery to Toyota -- all the main parts are subject to extended warranties. Toyota updated the intake on later engines -- so early Gen 3 motors have an extended warranty for the intake. They also address the cooler and valve with another service action.

The effects of the above can have have various operational effects on the engine. Obviously -- the hotter gasses flowing to the engine from a failing cooler are not good for the head or it's gasket. This can also increase oil use. The soot and hotter temps are causes of failure for the EGR valve. And finally, as the passageways in the intake clog, they do so unequally causing engine misfire.

Often this starts to happen past the 130k mark when soot really coats the cooler. Funny -- when the cooler clogs fully many of the symptoms will go away as the engine is no longer getting this unequal hot gas to its intake. Or any gas for that matter. Oil usage returns to a more usual amount for a higher mile vehicle.

I started buying Prius back in 2012 for my company -- so we have a mix of Gen3 and Gen4's as well as two CT's ... It's really important to perform the cleaning procedure to the EGR system sometime past 100k. With the labor involved we don't clean the valve -- we replace the valve. Typically. we replace the cooler as well as the cleaning on most don't get enough for us. Cleaning the intake is successful. The whole process must be done -- it's actually easier to remove the cooler/valve together vs doing either one. With the intake off we replace the PVC valve. Toyota has also updated the plugs -- they now use a hotter plug as replacement --- we also change the plugs.

Unfortunately -- people spend lots of time and money chasing codes for specific misfires and general misfires and they all trace back to this unequal gas injection -- the intake is also subject to condensation .. this will cause startup misfires on newer engines. My guess is this hotter temp -- and possibly more frequent misfire causes early head gasket failure. Then again -- what's early today? We have been lucky -- both of our oldest are now getting close to 220k and had the full service done at 210k.

It's not a cheap service. My independent takes about 5 hours to do the whole service -- and online the parts are nearing $500. so it's a +1k service.

we preform the coolant change as recommend using proper Toyota coolant --- if any coolant use is noted during anytime past 125k ..... a head gasket needs to be ruled out.

Edit: Mile of last service was 210K not the 110k as first stated

E46CT

Nice write up! thanks.

So to recap, it seems you are recommending full cooler, valve, and plug replacement at 130k.

2014 saw a revision to the intake manifold--does this fix or help mitigate any of the problems of the older manifold? In other words, is your recommendation fitting for ALL model years, based on your experience there?

Also what year were the hotter plugs spec'd? that's interesting i'll have to check that!

chargerfan

iTrader: (2)

Thank you yeldogt for that incredible post. I quoted it, and added it to the 1st post. Hope you dont mind


I've wondered for a long time .... what may have been the outcome if the egr cooler were never clogged. Would that have been the savior for our poor little head gaskets?

chargerfan

iTrader: (2)

PN SC16HR11 (supersedes SC20HR11). Dealer didnt share with me what year(s) they were intended for/replaced ... but one thing they were QUICK to point out to me was , my choice in plugs (SC20HR11) was incorrect as my VIN (MY 2013) calls for SC16HR11

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ct-...l#post10157726

yeldogt

Edit of my post above: We did the service on the high miles Prius last around @ 210k .... not 110k .... the cars are nearing 220k ... so 10k miles ago.

With the original cars: 2011's delivered in January 2012. (Toyota was still doing delivery of the 2011's in early 2012 as everything was delayed due to the tsunami) . We replaced the plugs with the same # around 120k as a regular service .. so Toyota did not update to the hotter plug for a least a couple of years. I noticed the change only last summer. I'm thinking the update came after 2015

Both of our early Prius would occasionally do the horrible cold start rattle when new -- I turned the car off the first couple of times it did it fearing the whole thing was coming apart. Cold wet weather was the typical time it did it -- but not always. It seemed to go away as the cars aged --- neither 2015 CT has had as bad a rattle .... but do to some degree. I believe both of the (CT) 15's would have come with the updated intake for this issue (No one has been able to tell me exactly what the intake change was anyway) Unless Toyota pays for the updated intake under the service action the cost of the part is crazy .. $500-$600 dollars (it's plastic!) I reported the rattle and rough running on startup to the dealer -- but we never got any codes .. and the dealer ddi not know what i was talking about. By the time the service actions came out we had passed the mile limit anyway.

For those with the time and skill -- taking the cooler and valve off at an earlier point and doing a full clean seems like a reasonable thing to do knowing the long term issues. Doing it early enough may save having to do the intake. By the time we understood what was going on -- EGR system code -- it was too late. My valve looked to be sticking and I could not risk cleaning the valve. my mechanic tried to clean the cooler .. but it was so clogged he could not get any cleaner through --- even sitting in cleaner all weekend. Cleaning an operating valve is different vs trying to save one with a malfunction. It seems with the lower mile cars people are able to get them clean. We have a business -- so.... I cannot have the cars down. Paying to clean a $200 valve and having to replace it soon after if the cleaning fails -- the car is out of action twice .. 2x the labor and the cleaning. You get the idea.

We were also getting an occasional general misfire code as well as a #2 misfire code prior to the EGR failure code. We got maybe three over a couple of months. I discounted it -- an occasional code that does not come back for weeks is not unusual on an older car with many miles. When my mechanic pulled off the metal tube from the EGR valve to the intake -- it was full of soot. It was then that we understood that the intake had to come off -- we then found that the only port still partially open was the port to #2. What was happening prior to the cooler being fully clogged was the EGR system was only injecting gas to #2 making for a lean situation -- misfire.

I had also noticed an increase in the oil usage around 130k. The cars used no oil between oil changes (10k) up to that point .. all of a sudden they would go through some oil .. eventually about 1qt in 5k miles . I just figured they were getting old ...then .... as they got older still -- the use dropped?

It was only after we took the first one apart that we fully understood what was going on -- both cars now have about 10k on them since the service. No codes have ever come back -- no death rattle in the morning and the oil use was not quite 1qt in that 10k miles. They are both scheduled for oil changes.

Toyota changed the circuit on our Gen 4 Prius ... the cooler is attached differently .. and the supply to the cooler is intended to minimize the soot. Time will tell. The cooler attachment point is the problem on the Gen 3's and the CT -- too much soot.

Our CT's are leased -- they have about 40k on them and I'm currently on a 6 month extension. My plan was to buy them -- but, I figured I would take the extension and see what the new small hybrid crossover looks like that's due next month. We really like the CT's -- they are perfect for our typical one or two people .. and the hatchback is great. I wish they were a coupe! The length is great as well ... easy in and out around the city -- parking etc. Both of ours are lower optioned models -- buyout is around $17500. Was going to purchase two Prius at the time ... but the Toyota dealer is also lexus and they gave me a deal I could not pass up.

I'm sorry for those with the head gasket issue .. I think we got lucky. It's also a shame that the replacement ends up being so much work and cost

KKM

Read through all the post on this thread and lots of good information. I have about 65,000 miles and sounds like with good preventative maintenance, this shudder issue and HG failure can be prevented. So, in post #8 there's 4 videos for DIY, I'm just a weekend mechanic, but if I follow those steps, I should be set?

yeldogt

It's a straightforward fix -- lots of things have to come off .. but, there is nothing overly complex. It's not something that a weekend mechanic could do the first time in a couple of hours -- one wold also have to be mindful that the cooler could take longer then anticipated to clean. Personally -- I would make sure you had all the gaskets and only use OE Toyota gaskets. Understand the procedure to get them on correctly and not over tighten anything.

I typically get my plugs from an online dealer (eBay) .. same with filters and wiper inserts. For $42 .. do the plugs. And the PVC valve with the intake off -- that's really cheap and so easy with the intake off