2002 Camry vs ES300
09-05-01, 07:47 PM
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I just got finished looking at the specs and pictures for the 2002 Camry and ES300. Wow! I am extremely impressed with the Camry but really disappointed with the ES300. The Camry has all the major options offered on an ES, GPS, wood trim, VSC and in-dash CD changer. The only material difference I found was 18 more HP, Rain sensing wipers, HID, Adaptive Variable Suspension and Rear Sun Shade ! It's certainly not a $5,000 difference.
I currently have a GS4 however as a former ES300 driver, I have always defended the ES300 when others call it just a Camry. After looking at the 2002 ES300 and Camry, I must now concede and question why anyone would buy a 2002 ES300?
IMHO, Toyota has just devalued their Lexus brand name by the introduction of the 2002 Camry and indirectly told us how invaluable we are to them.
I currently have a GS4 however as a former ES300 driver, I have always defended the ES300 when others call it just a Camry. After looking at the 2002 ES300 and Camry, I must now concede and question why anyone would buy a 2002 ES300?
IMHO, Toyota has just devalued their Lexus brand name by the introduction of the 2002 Camry and indirectly told us how invaluable we are to them.
09-21-01, 12:55 PM
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Don't forget about the water repellent front door glass, the 5 speed automatic vs. the Camry's 4 speed, the Regency leather (same as in the LS430) covered seats, the "real" wood trim as opposed to plastic in the Camry, the 240 watt Mark Levinson stereo system in addition to more sound insulation, better paint quality, warranty, service and dealer treatment. Those things make it worth it for me at least.
Last edited by jwaters; 09-21-01 at 12:58 PM.
09-21-01, 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by jwaters
Don't forget about the water repellent front door glass, the 5 speed automatic vs. the Camry's 4 speed, the Regency leather (same as in the LS430) covered seats, the "real" wood trim as opposed to plastic in the Camry, the 240 watt Mark Levinson stereo system in addition to more sound insulation, better paint quality, warranty, service and dealer treatment. Those things make it worth it for me at least.
Don't forget about the water repellent front door glass, the 5 speed automatic vs. the Camry's 4 speed, the Regency leather (same as in the LS430) covered seats, the "real" wood trim as opposed to plastic in the Camry, the 240 watt Mark Levinson stereo system in addition to more sound insulation, better paint quality, warranty, service and dealer treatment. Those things make it worth it for me at least.
PS: Don't forget that side-impact airbags, full-length side-curtain airbags and moonroof are all standard.
09-21-01, 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by CokeBear
I just got finished looking at the specs and pictures for the 2002 Camry and ES300. Wow! I am extremely impressed with the Camry but really disappointed with the ES300. The Camry has all the major options offered on an ES, GPS, wood trim, VSC and in-dash CD changer. The only material difference I found was 18 more HP, Rain sensing wipers, HID, Adaptive Variable Suspension and Rear Sun Shade ! It's certainly not a $5,000 difference.
I currently have a GS4 however as a former ES300 driver, I have always defended the ES300 when others call it just a Camry. After looking at the 2002 ES300 and Camry, I must now concede and question why anyone would buy a 2002 ES300?
IMHO, Toyota has just devalued their Lexus brand name by the introduction of the 2002 Camry and indirectly told us how invaluable we are to them.
I just got finished looking at the specs and pictures for the 2002 Camry and ES300. Wow! I am extremely impressed with the Camry but really disappointed with the ES300. The Camry has all the major options offered on an ES, GPS, wood trim, VSC and in-dash CD changer. The only material difference I found was 18 more HP, Rain sensing wipers, HID, Adaptive Variable Suspension and Rear Sun Shade ! It's certainly not a $5,000 difference.
I currently have a GS4 however as a former ES300 driver, I have always defended the ES300 when others call it just a Camry. After looking at the 2002 ES300 and Camry, I must now concede and question why anyone would buy a 2002 ES300?
IMHO, Toyota has just devalued their Lexus brand name by the introduction of the 2002 Camry and indirectly told us how invaluable we are to them.
09-23-01, 03:01 PM
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Post #1 to begin this topic is a expected post from someone who truly cannot comprehend anything.
As far as I can see the ES300 offers alot over the Camry, 2002.
Side curtain airbags.
AVS suspension option,
HID lights,
rear sunshade,
better base stereo in ES300
& available Mark LEvinson stereo,
MOre BHP & torque,
5-sp. Automatic vs. 4-sp. automatic in Camry,
And then better leather quality.
auto up/down windows,
rainsense wipers,
better warranty,
better dealer service,
dealer benefits,
better quality,
the ES300 will be quieter & more luxurious.
ES300 more stylish.
And of course there will be other little features which separate the 2.
As far as I can see the ES300 offers alot over the Camry, 2002.
Side curtain airbags.
AVS suspension option,
HID lights,
rear sunshade,
better base stereo in ES300
& available Mark LEvinson stereo,
MOre BHP & torque,
5-sp. Automatic vs. 4-sp. automatic in Camry,
And then better leather quality.
auto up/down windows,
rainsense wipers,
better warranty,
better dealer service,
dealer benefits,
better quality,
the ES300 will be quieter & more luxurious.
ES300 more stylish.
And of course there will be other little features which separate the 2.
10-10-01, 12:57 PM
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Lexus Service?
Lexus Service, at least the three dealers I've tried does not justify a $5000 price difference!
No one mentioned the SE Option avail on the Camry vs the Jello ride of the ES...
Lexus is going after older drivers(or non drivers) with the New ES and it is a mistake! Lexus hopes to sell 40-50 K 2002 ES...by comparision, Acura Sold 45K TL's in August alone.
Acording to US AUTO NEWS...the median age of a ES owner(new) is 55 years old...the median age of a TL is 39...both making over $70K a year!
I've driven the AVS and it helps but the steering is still slow and unconected....
I'll keep my 93 SC400 and my 2000 ES Platnium with Tokico Shocks!
And what is with the Pep Boys looking exhaust hanging under the car like it is a one size fits all!
No one mentioned the SE Option avail on the Camry vs the Jello ride of the ES...
Lexus is going after older drivers(or non drivers) with the New ES and it is a mistake! Lexus hopes to sell 40-50 K 2002 ES...by comparision, Acura Sold 45K TL's in August alone.
Acording to US AUTO NEWS...the median age of a ES owner(new) is 55 years old...the median age of a TL is 39...both making over $70K a year!
I've driven the AVS and it helps but the steering is still slow and unconected....
I'll keep my 93 SC400 and my 2000 ES Platnium with Tokico Shocks!
And what is with the Pep Boys looking exhaust hanging under the car like it is a one size fits all!
10-10-01, 08:00 PM
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Re: Lexus Service?
Originally posted by BimmerLexus
Lexus hopes to sell 40-50 K 2002 ES...by comparision, Acura Sold 45K TL's in August alone.
Lexus hopes to sell 40-50 K 2002 ES...by comparision, Acura Sold 45K TL's in August alone.
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10-10-01, 08:19 PM
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CAMRY VS LEXUS
Do you want to tell your girlfriend you drive a toyota camry a family car and tell people its like a lexus or Do you want to tell your girlfriend I have a Lexus, which puts you in a totally different category. Dont get a Camry otherwise you will turn into that person who thinks its just as good when it fact its a family car with no prestige.
10-10-01, 08:52 PM
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Prestige
As good as our cars are...they are only LEXUS here in the USA. they are Toyota everywhere else.
Toyota er Lexus just doesn't have the pedigree (yet) to be a "prestige" name plate. Mercedes and BMW still and will for a while trump us....
It all has to do with Toyota's priorities...they are a company designed to make money, plain and simple...they do it well...they make a product that attracts the masses, but not the enthusist...there isn't enough money there.
Not even Toyota has learned how to create a "soul" and untill they do, "Prestige" will elude them!
Look at how a "Vintage" Mercedes SL holds and eventually goes up in Value or a BMW CS Coupe or 2002 ti appreciate now.
My prestine 93 SC400 keeps dropping in value like a rock wih no end in sight.
We have nice cars...but there is no Prestige associated with a made up Make that was born from a computer generated ad agency back in the 80's.
It just isn't going to happen...especially if Toyota keeps making cars like to LS430 and SC430. Fast nice cars that are as fun to drive as a Town Car!
Joe
Toyota er Lexus just doesn't have the pedigree (yet) to be a "prestige" name plate. Mercedes and BMW still and will for a while trump us....
It all has to do with Toyota's priorities...they are a company designed to make money, plain and simple...they do it well...they make a product that attracts the masses, but not the enthusist...there isn't enough money there.
Not even Toyota has learned how to create a "soul" and untill they do, "Prestige" will elude them!
Look at how a "Vintage" Mercedes SL holds and eventually goes up in Value or a BMW CS Coupe or 2002 ti appreciate now.
My prestine 93 SC400 keeps dropping in value like a rock wih no end in sight.
We have nice cars...but there is no Prestige associated with a made up Make that was born from a computer generated ad agency back in the 80's.
It just isn't going to happen...especially if Toyota keeps making cars like to LS430 and SC430. Fast nice cars that are as fun to drive as a Town Car!
Joe
10-10-01, 09:50 PM
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The mercedes and BMW's you refer too are over 20 years old and older. Lexus has only been out for about 10 years. There are no cars that appreciate in 10years. Lexus is presigious because not a lot of people decide to go for the SC so people are WOWed when they see one and appreciate how excellent the car is compared to competitors. And as you say Lexus is highly rated in America. Well guess what YOUR IN AMERICA, and I dont plan on going to Germany with mine.
10-10-01, 10:34 PM
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bimmerlexus
Hehe , what company isn't trying to make money ?
10-11-01, 04:03 AM
#12
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Toyota is indeed Toyota around the world, but Lexus IS a seperate division within. It is, of course, true that the ES series shares floor pan and many components with Camry, but with the exception of the ES250, Lexus has designed esch generation of ES and (corporate mandate) THEN shared the platform, not vice versa.
As far as older BMWs and Mercs appreciating, I agree that it is a small miracle that any car eventually appreciates in value. However, the automotive landscape was different in the '70s. We can be grateful for these manufacturers for keeping faith, but there weren't as many enthusiasts who were interested in foreign cars. Those that were mostly bought MGBs (which by then were crap) or TR6s (which cost as much as a BMW2002 tii). So, now we've got a few desirable MBs and BMWs which have appreciated compared with their sales price (but not when inflation is taken into account) of the early 70s, in part because of their rarity. But so have American muscle cars from the 60s!!! Also because of desireability and relative rarity (at least in unmolested form). All went through a long period of depreciation before the curve reversed. So, I suspect that the SC, though mass-produced as were the Mercedes and BMW examples cited by BimmerLexus, will eventually turn the corner due as much to what I still consider to be a classic (in the making) body design. (When I bought my first SC in 92 they were relatively rare here. People would swivel and stare when I'd drive by as if they were seeing the Space Shuttle close up!!!! Incredible!) But then, I'm partial to SCs, having had a 92 SC400 for 1.5 yrs and an SC300 5 spd for 7.5.
As far as pedigree is concerned, neither of the German marques could claim any when they had only been around for 10 yrs. And as far as "soul" is concerned, that term along with the equally elusive "character", is usually synonymous with finding various fluids on the driveway beneath your car, unusual panel fit and electrics with only intermittent interest in performing their functions. This is not to say that I don't like nor wouldn't buy either of the Germans mentioned. But we always buy cars for their perceived strengths and how they fit our needs/wants. I didn't write the check for the status of the marque; I wrote it because Lexus had all of what I wanted in a car and a dealership.
Sorry to be so long winded; time for my medicine
As far as older BMWs and Mercs appreciating, I agree that it is a small miracle that any car eventually appreciates in value. However, the automotive landscape was different in the '70s. We can be grateful for these manufacturers for keeping faith, but there weren't as many enthusiasts who were interested in foreign cars. Those that were mostly bought MGBs (which by then were crap) or TR6s (which cost as much as a BMW2002 tii). So, now we've got a few desirable MBs and BMWs which have appreciated compared with their sales price (but not when inflation is taken into account) of the early 70s, in part because of their rarity. But so have American muscle cars from the 60s!!! Also because of desireability and relative rarity (at least in unmolested form). All went through a long period of depreciation before the curve reversed. So, I suspect that the SC, though mass-produced as were the Mercedes and BMW examples cited by BimmerLexus, will eventually turn the corner due as much to what I still consider to be a classic (in the making) body design. (When I bought my first SC in 92 they were relatively rare here. People would swivel and stare when I'd drive by as if they were seeing the Space Shuttle close up!!!! Incredible!) But then, I'm partial to SCs, having had a 92 SC400 for 1.5 yrs and an SC300 5 spd for 7.5.
As far as pedigree is concerned, neither of the German marques could claim any when they had only been around for 10 yrs. And as far as "soul" is concerned, that term along with the equally elusive "character", is usually synonymous with finding various fluids on the driveway beneath your car, unusual panel fit and electrics with only intermittent interest in performing their functions. This is not to say that I don't like nor wouldn't buy either of the Germans mentioned. But we always buy cars for their perceived strengths and how they fit our needs/wants. I didn't write the check for the status of the marque; I wrote it because Lexus had all of what I wanted in a car and a dealership.
Sorry to be so long winded; time for my medicine
10-11-01, 07:21 AM
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Soul
Except for the aformentioned GS430(with a sports package) and the IS300 (with the Sport Wheels) NO Lexus has Soul....certainly not the New SC430. Even with 18 inch wheels, there is NO feed back through the wheel. While nice in a Town Car or Caddilac, I want road feel so I know what the wheels are doing.
My SC400 was built on the last generation Supra...a real sports car...the GS is a dirivitive of that (thank god!)...but not one other Lexus is actually built for an enthusist(they are only Marketed towards us)
When ever a Lexus is compared Apples to Apples to a BMW or a Mercedes...it doesn't fare well...it does good...but it is always 8/10ths...never 10/10ths.
Of course we have all seen a lot of Lexus "riced" out, but out of the box....forget about it.
As far as memorable...no one stops and stares at a Lexus product like when the SC first came out...people walk right by the LS430 with out a stare...but will gaze at a S class or 7 series(especially with the sport package)...a 12 year old MB SL gets more stares and respect than a 2002 SC430(er Audi TT)...
The GS with its base wheels looks sad...and the ES untill 2000 when they added the 16" wheels looked weak...granted so does a 3 series or C class with 15" wheels....
Lexus wasn't created for Pedigree...it was created as a marketing tool for people who buy cars to show off too there neibours ...not too take the winding back road home with.
Even my SC400 with 17" GS4 wheels and Tokico's can't hang on my favorite back roads like my 87 535is can, and forget about taking my 2000 ES300 with Tokico's there...it'll be in a ditch.
Like I said...I love my Lexus cars...but I have no delusions about them ever having a pedigree or prestige like a BMW or Mercedes...
Joe
My SC400 was built on the last generation Supra...a real sports car...the GS is a dirivitive of that (thank god!)...but not one other Lexus is actually built for an enthusist(they are only Marketed towards us)
When ever a Lexus is compared Apples to Apples to a BMW or a Mercedes...it doesn't fare well...it does good...but it is always 8/10ths...never 10/10ths.
Of course we have all seen a lot of Lexus "riced" out, but out of the box....forget about it.
As far as memorable...no one stops and stares at a Lexus product like when the SC first came out...people walk right by the LS430 with out a stare...but will gaze at a S class or 7 series(especially with the sport package)...a 12 year old MB SL gets more stares and respect than a 2002 SC430(er Audi TT)...
The GS with its base wheels looks sad...and the ES untill 2000 when they added the 16" wheels looked weak...granted so does a 3 series or C class with 15" wheels....
Lexus wasn't created for Pedigree...it was created as a marketing tool for people who buy cars to show off too there neibours ...not too take the winding back road home with.
Even my SC400 with 17" GS4 wheels and Tokico's can't hang on my favorite back roads like my 87 535is can, and forget about taking my 2000 ES300 with Tokico's there...it'll be in a ditch.
Like I said...I love my Lexus cars...but I have no delusions about them ever having a pedigree or prestige like a BMW or Mercedes...
Joe
10-11-01, 07:25 AM
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as far as "soul" is concerned, that term along with the equally elusive "character", is usually synonymous with finding various fluids on the driveway beneath your car
Anyone with a 92 thru 97 SC400 is familar with fluids on the drive way! Namely powersteering fluid tha leaks onto the alternator and mealts the harness...
And transmission fluid and differential fluid....
Three Lexus dealers told me..."Every car leaks"...
Yeah, my Lexus sales person never said that when he sold me my two cars!
Joe
Anyone with a 92 thru 97 SC400 is familar with fluids on the drive way! Namely powersteering fluid tha leaks onto the alternator and mealts the harness...
And transmission fluid and differential fluid....
Three Lexus dealers told me..."Every car leaks"...
Yeah, my Lexus sales person never said that when he sold me my two cars!
Joe
10-11-01, 08:29 AM
#15
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BL, I don't disagree that, box-stock, BMW is a better handling marque than Lexus. Lexus (CL members notwithstanding and the occasional add targeted at specific aspects of performance of the GS) has never maintained otherwise. And I also agree that, compared to BMW (which sets the world standard), steering feel is not yet there. BTW, I don't think there is a valid comparison between an ES (even with Tokicos) and any BMW. Different missions in life, if you will.
Again, it comes down to different horses for different courses.
Sorry your coupes had the drizzles. Neither one of mine (44k on the first, 93k on the second) leaked a drop of anything other than water from the A/C condensor drain hose. And they were both.......er.......enthusiastically driven. I would consider myself quite familiar with both SC300 and SC400. A measure of my confidence in their reliabiltiy is that I sold the second to one of my partners!
As far as creating pedigree, I don't think it can be done. It occurs with time and the accorded respect of those who drive the cars. Time will tell. As I said previously, I suspect that Lexus will also be considered in that pantheon.
Again, it comes down to different horses for different courses.
Sorry your coupes had the drizzles. Neither one of mine (44k on the first, 93k on the second) leaked a drop of anything other than water from the A/C condensor drain hose. And they were both.......er.......enthusiastically driven. I would consider myself quite familiar with both SC300 and SC400. A measure of my confidence in their reliabiltiy is that I sold the second to one of my partners!
As far as creating pedigree, I don't think it can be done. It occurs with time and the accorded respect of those who drive the cars. Time will tell. As I said previously, I suspect that Lexus will also be considered in that pantheon.