ES300 As Reliable As LS400??
11-08-08, 06:51 PM
#1
Driver
Thread Starter
ES300 As Reliable As LS400??
I've owned my 2000 ES for about 6 months.
This car was maintained by the book, never missed a dealer checkup.
The car still feels brand new, even with 90k on her.
My previous car was a 2000 LS400 ... previous owner basically fixed it only if it was broken. The powertrain was solid, but the front suspension was showing its age.
My question is this .... does the ES300 have as good of a drivetrain as the LS400?
I see high mileage threads on the LS forum, and many cars have well over 300k. When I check out ebay, there are tons of high mileage LS400's still on the road. I don't see many high mileage ES300's still around.
Even when I check out older Camry V6's, I don't see mileage figures as high as the LS400. Was the flagship V8 a more dependable engine?
With continued proper maintenance, I would hope that my ES would last as
long as a similar LS .... maybe I'm dreaming?
This car was maintained by the book, never missed a dealer checkup.
The car still feels brand new, even with 90k on her.
My previous car was a 2000 LS400 ... previous owner basically fixed it only if it was broken. The powertrain was solid, but the front suspension was showing its age.
My question is this .... does the ES300 have as good of a drivetrain as the LS400?
I see high mileage threads on the LS forum, and many cars have well over 300k. When I check out ebay, there are tons of high mileage LS400's still on the road. I don't see many high mileage ES300's still around.
Even when I check out older Camry V6's, I don't see mileage figures as high as the LS400. Was the flagship V8 a more dependable engine?
With continued proper maintenance, I would hope that my ES would last as
long as a similar LS .... maybe I'm dreaming?
11-09-08, 12:26 AM
#2
OMG YESSSS!!!! My es has 215k on it and there are many others here with over 200k and even one with over 300k. The camry drivetrain is a very reliable setup. Even more so when your looking at the 97+.
11-09-08, 03:01 PM
#4
Driver
Thread Starter
Well, that's encouraging news.
I have my car's complete service history from May of 2000.
Basically, the car has simply gone through minor and major scheduled Lexus
service, plus the usual brakes and tires.
No mechanical breakdowns.
It just seems that the LS400 gets all the media praise ... the most reliable car
ever built, etc. With the ES300's lighter front end weight, I would think the suspension
components are under less strain, and should age quite well.
Time will tell, but this car seems to be every bit as solid as my LS400.
I have my car's complete service history from May of 2000.
Basically, the car has simply gone through minor and major scheduled Lexus
service, plus the usual brakes and tires.
No mechanical breakdowns.
It just seems that the LS400 gets all the media praise ... the most reliable car
ever built, etc. With the ES300's lighter front end weight, I would think the suspension
components are under less strain, and should age quite well.
Time will tell, but this car seems to be every bit as solid as my LS400.
11-09-08, 05:57 PM
#5
Lead Lap
Generally, a car manufacturer's most expensive cars are the ones most likely to be considered of highest useful value over time and kept on the road. For example, one rarely sees entry level Mercedes 190E cars from the 1980s but top of the line S-class Mercedes cars from the 1980s are common.
Entry level Mercedes sedans from the mid-1950's are almost nonexistent even though many thousands were sold in the U.S. However, almost all of the 1,400 top of the line 1954-1957 Gullwing Mercedes 300SL cars still exist and are worth as much as $1,000,000 today.
The same goes for the early Lexus cars from the early 1990s. I see gen 1 90-92 LS400s every single day but almost never see ES250 cars from the same period.
That's just the way it is.
Entry level Mercedes sedans from the mid-1950's are almost nonexistent even though many thousands were sold in the U.S. However, almost all of the 1,400 top of the line 1954-1957 Gullwing Mercedes 300SL cars still exist and are worth as much as $1,000,000 today.
The same goes for the early Lexus cars from the early 1990s. I see gen 1 90-92 LS400s every single day but almost never see ES250 cars from the same period.
That's just the way it is.
11-09-08, 07:56 PM
#6
The es250 just like the camry of those years had a bad engine and not many were sold. Now how many es300's do you see? Just yesterday I saw three. Two third generation and one second generation. I see es300's everywhere I go. So I do agree with you when it comes to some cars. That still leaves many cars that don't fit your mold like the honda civic?? Or Buick's from the early 90's that 3.8 liter drivetrain was bulletproof!?! Or how about Subaru Impreza's that 2.2 runs forever and how many do you still see on the road? Even more so what about the 92-95 Saturn SL1 or even SL2's (If you kept up on the timing belt) are still running they didn't rust and that little 1.9 don't stop kicking? Lets not even get into muscle cars from the 60's and 70's of all the ones that weren't wreaked how many are either worth restoring or have been restored. I'm sorry but one manufacturer doesn't make the mold and you know as well as I that until recently Mercedes wasn't really up to snuff. I've seen it first hand my Dad had an M class on his lot and it didn't even hold a candle to an RX300 or a Grand Cherokee Limited.
11-09-08, 08:35 PM
#7
Lexucanafer
My '93 ES has 434,000 kilometers or 270,000 miles on it, and it isn't showing any signs of giving up the ghost any time soon. I agree with Choas about the ES250, and also about the plentiful number of 2nd generation ES300s there are still on the road. In 1992 the ES was re-engineered from the ground up and since the Lexus brand was still in its infantsy at that time, I think extra care was put into the design and the manufacture of both the ES and the LS in the early 90's to ensure Lexus' well-earned reputation of producing very dependable and reliable cars. There were only two Lexus models to begin with - the ES and the flagship LS. Had the ES suffered from poorer quality, it would have dragged the LS down with it. That never happened.
Last edited by Lexucan; 11-11-08 at 11:28 PM.
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11-10-08, 11:07 AM
#8
I've owned my 2000 ES for about 6 months.
This car was maintained by the book, never missed a dealer checkup.
The car still feels brand new, even with 90k on her.
My previous car was a 2000 LS400 ... previous owner basically fixed it only if it was broken. The powertrain was solid, but the front suspension was showing its age.
My question is this .... does the ES300 have as good of a drivetrain as the LS400?
I see high mileage threads on the LS forum, and many cars have well over 300k. When I check out ebay, there are tons of high mileage LS400's still on the road. I don't see many high mileage ES300's still around.
Even when I check out older Camry V6's, I don't see mileage figures as high as the LS400. Was the flagship V8 a more dependable engine?
With continued proper maintenance, I would hope that my ES would last as
long as a similar LS .... maybe I'm dreaming?
This car was maintained by the book, never missed a dealer checkup.
The car still feels brand new, even with 90k on her.
My previous car was a 2000 LS400 ... previous owner basically fixed it only if it was broken. The powertrain was solid, but the front suspension was showing its age.
My question is this .... does the ES300 have as good of a drivetrain as the LS400?
I see high mileage threads on the LS forum, and many cars have well over 300k. When I check out ebay, there are tons of high mileage LS400's still on the road. I don't see many high mileage ES300's still around.
Even when I check out older Camry V6's, I don't see mileage figures as high as the LS400. Was the flagship V8 a more dependable engine?
With continued proper maintenance, I would hope that my ES would last as
long as a similar LS .... maybe I'm dreaming?
In terms of no high mileage ones for sale, its becasue everyone loves the car soo much!!!
cheers
11-10-08, 01:07 PM
#9
Lead Lap
There were 83,129 LS400 cars sold in 90-91.
That's one ES250 for every 2.2 LS400 cars. That's a lot of ES250s!
There are other reasons there are fewer early ES cars on the road that early LS400 cars.
A big reason is that the body style change that came with the intro of the ES300 for the 1992 model year made the ES250 immediately look dated. People tend to prefer cars that look more like newer versions of the same model hence fewer ES250s were taken care of and preserved as they aged. Perhaps more would have been preserved if owners had taken them to less expensive Toyota dealers for repairs. A coworker put way over 300,000 miles on his 90 Camry commuting 120 miles each day so the similar 90 ES250 must have been pretty decent.
The LS400, on the other hand, did not look visually all that different throughout its entire model run -- that made the early LS400 seem more valuable. I used to look at my 1990 LS400 sitting next to my my 2000 LS400 in my garage and marvel how much they looked alike and how they were really so completely different.
I know of people who have spent thousands restoring LS400s -- mainly cosmetics and front suspension. Does anyone spend that kind of money doing similar restoration of an ES250 or early ES300?
Perhaps the biggest reason so many early LS400s are on the road today is that they were considered to be "world class" cars when they came out. A 32 valve V8 engine like the 1990 LS400 had was previously found mainly in exotic Italian sports cars like Ferrari. No offense meant, but the ES250 and ES300 can hardly be though of as "world class" cars.
To illustrate what I said about the 1st year 1990 LS400 and last year 2000 LS400 visual similarities, attached is a photo of my "twins". The 90 LS has since gone to a new owner and is going strong at over 250,000 miles.
11-11-08, 08:31 PM
#11
There were 37,476 ES250 cars sold in 90-91.
There were 83,129 LS400 cars sold in 90-91.
That's one ES250 for every 2.2 LS400 cars. That's a lot of ES250s!
There are other reasons there are fewer early ES cars on the road that early LS400 cars.
A big reason is that the body style change that came with the intro of the ES300 for the 1992 model year made the ES250 immediately look dated. People tend to prefer cars that look more like newer versions of the same model hence fewer ES250s were taken care of and preserved as they aged. Perhaps more would have been preserved if owners had taken them to less expensive Toyota dealers for repairs. A coworker put way over 300,000 miles on his 90 Camry commuting 120 miles each day so the similar 90 ES250 must have been pretty decent.
The LS400, on the other hand, did not look visually all that different throughout its entire model run -- that made the early LS400 seem more valuable. I used to look at my 1990 LS400 sitting next to my my 2000 LS400 in my garage and marvel how much they looked alike and how they were really so completely different.
I know of people who have spent thousands restoring LS400s -- mainly cosmetics and front suspension. Does anyone spend that kind of money doing similar restoration of an ES250 or early ES300?
Perhaps the biggest reason so many early LS400s are on the road today is that they were considered to be "world class" cars when they came out. A 32 valve V8 engine like the 1990 LS400 had was previously found mainly in exotic Italian sports cars like Ferrari. No offense meant, but the ES250 and ES300 can hardly be though of as "world class" cars.
To illustrate what I said about the 1st year 1990 LS400 and last year 2000 LS400 visual similarities, attached is a photo of my "twins". The 90 LS has since gone to a new owner and is going strong at over 250,000 miles.
There were 83,129 LS400 cars sold in 90-91.
That's one ES250 for every 2.2 LS400 cars. That's a lot of ES250s!
There are other reasons there are fewer early ES cars on the road that early LS400 cars.
A big reason is that the body style change that came with the intro of the ES300 for the 1992 model year made the ES250 immediately look dated. People tend to prefer cars that look more like newer versions of the same model hence fewer ES250s were taken care of and preserved as they aged. Perhaps more would have been preserved if owners had taken them to less expensive Toyota dealers for repairs. A coworker put way over 300,000 miles on his 90 Camry commuting 120 miles each day so the similar 90 ES250 must have been pretty decent.
The LS400, on the other hand, did not look visually all that different throughout its entire model run -- that made the early LS400 seem more valuable. I used to look at my 1990 LS400 sitting next to my my 2000 LS400 in my garage and marvel how much they looked alike and how they were really so completely different.
I know of people who have spent thousands restoring LS400s -- mainly cosmetics and front suspension. Does anyone spend that kind of money doing similar restoration of an ES250 or early ES300?
Perhaps the biggest reason so many early LS400s are on the road today is that they were considered to be "world class" cars when they came out. A 32 valve V8 engine like the 1990 LS400 had was previously found mainly in exotic Italian sports cars like Ferrari. No offense meant, but the ES250 and ES300 can hardly be though of as "world class" cars.
To illustrate what I said about the 1st year 1990 LS400 and last year 2000 LS400 visual similarities, attached is a photo of my "twins". The 90 LS has since gone to a new owner and is going strong at over 250,000 miles.
. Now what I'm comparing is the es300 to the ls400 in terms of reliability nothing more. I do agree hands down that the ls400 is far superior and the es300 is nowhere near a "world class" car. What I'm simply saying is that they are just as reliable and its been proven here many times with all the high mileage owners here. Even more to the point those high mileage es's are mostly original cuz like you said most people won't spend thousands restoring them. That adds even more credit to their reliability. Another point on this is COST parts and maintenance on an ls400 is much more expensive than an es300. The es300 is a enlightened toyota camry we all know that but I see that as a good thing. That means it cheap to fix and almost any mechanic will know his/her way around it. When comparing dollar for dollar fixing an es300 to a ls400 the es300 is far less money to fix. That being said less maintenance $=more reliable vehicle. So with that being said I will argue you with facts upon facts that THE ES30 IS RELIABLE AS THE LS400.period
11-11-08, 09:15 PM
#12
I just want to put in my 2 cents.
I have had both a 91 LS400 and now a 98 ES300 and I can give you my honest opinion about my experience with these cars.
The LS400 was a great car but it definitely costs a lot more to maintain.
I had mine to about 110K miles but maintenance was costing too much.
Now for my 98 ES300 that has 258K miles on it and it is a VERY reliable car.
Still feels new and maintenance is very reasonable.
I have documented all maintenance for the last 11 years and total cost has been $7K.
This includes tires, oil changes, timing belt changes and more.
I think I can get 500K miles or more out of it.
I'm planning on keeping this one till it dies.
I have had both a 91 LS400 and now a 98 ES300 and I can give you my honest opinion about my experience with these cars.
The LS400 was a great car but it definitely costs a lot more to maintain.
I had mine to about 110K miles but maintenance was costing too much.
Now for my 98 ES300 that has 258K miles on it and it is a VERY reliable car.
Still feels new and maintenance is very reasonable.
I have documented all maintenance for the last 11 years and total cost has been $7K.
This includes tires, oil changes, timing belt changes and more.
I think I can get 500K miles or more out of it.
I'm planning on keeping this one till it dies.
11-14-08, 12:13 AM
#13
Any RWD car will last MUCH longer than FWD it is stupid to talk about it that is why GS and LS are longer lasting cars than ES on the road. Plus any car that is maintained right will last long time in example my 1996 JETTA TDI diesel has 510 000 miles and some of those miles pulling little trailer and it still runs new (little rust though) but with 90HP it is a work horse.
Oh yeah should we ever put 2jzge engine in same relaibility question as the FWD Camry engine
Oh yeah should we ever put 2jzge engine in same relaibility question as the FWD Camry engine
Last edited by dario; 11-14-08 at 12:17 AM.
11-14-08, 06:56 PM
#14
Lead Lap
FWD cards are usually the less expensive cars a manufacturer makes. Rear wheel cars tend to be the more expensive cars. This gets back to my argument that the more expensive cars a manufacturer makes are the ones most likely to be preserved. The least expensive cars like FWD cars are the least likely cars to be preserved over a long period of time.
11-14-08, 07:58 PM
#15
Lexus Test Driver
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I have seen several ES250's still going around here I parked next to one a few month's ago. The car was obviously never properly taken care of the body had damage fixed by a cheap can of gold spray paint on a brown car the dashboard was cracked car appeared filthy but it ran yet. From what I could tell the old folks that owned it did not bother taken care of the car. I see any amount of original LS400's on the road very easy to spot as they had a similar grill to the ES250 what I call the + sign grill ES250, LS400 and RX400h