mdbrown

Keep in mind, when you do things like transmission fluid change, brake and coolant flushes at 90k you are not necessarily replacing failing fluids. The fluids may very well be fine, you are doing preventative maintenance. You replacing these fluids before they have a chance to fail, the reason being that allowing them to fail before replacing them can damage the components they cool and lubricate.

Coulter

The service writers at a dealership gets a commission on how many repairs they can "sell" you, and many of them know absolutely nothing about cars but they pretend they're mechanics. I owned a new Infiniti years ago under warranty, and the service advisors would just straight up and lie and say that I needed things like new hoses and belts, funny ,but when I inspected them, they were fine.

They're just trying to find non-warranty items they can bill the customer for and meet their numbers. That's what they're trained to do. The line he gave you about how "lucky" you are getting away with this as long as you have was either him being stupid or him trying to take advantage of you and make a sale.

The best advice is to follow your manual and be skeptical when a service advisor makes a recommendation for maintenance that deviates from that schedule, especially when there's nothing wrong with the car. They'll try to "scare" you by saying things like "if you don't get this maintenance, it could void your warranty" but if you follow the manual, they can't deny you on a warranty claim. Also, service writers like to push things like the "60k mile service" and it will cost something like a thousand dollars for them to basically "inspect" your car and change your air filter. Have them break down exactly what they're doing and compare it with your manual.

Just about everything out of this guys mouth sounds like he's scamming you (like the carbon in the injectors ruining your engine). If your car is having any drivability issues, then your extended warranty needs to cover it. My guess is the dealership will suddenly say it's not necessary to have this service when you insist that is should be a warranty repair.

Just out of curiosity, did the dealer give you a quote for these "needed" repairs?

yeldogt

When you purchase a CPO vehicle it is inspected by the selling dealer and those items that do not meet the specifications of that particular manufacturer's CPO program are fixed. Each are a little different -- an example is how much tread must be remaining on the tires -- must they all match. They also do all the maintenance that must be performed within the next 6 months.

You paid for the CPO warranty - it was in the price.

Regular maintenance items going forward are not included - so if the timing belt is due because of miles or age this is on you. Fluid changes are also the owner's responsibility. Some CPO warranties cover belts /hoses and bulbs .....others do not ... need to read the CPO book. The Lexus CPO previously did not cover bulbs --


You should not have to pay for anything else -- any items for the injectors or engine problems should be on Toyota.

Unfortunately, many dealers give service recommendations that exceed the manufacturers - changing the spark plugs at 50k or doing injector cleaning. I would leave it alone if you are not experiencing any problems. But, if they have found a problem with an injector or other item -- this should be covered

mdbrown

Must disagree here. Even if you changed the air filter every day a certain amount of dirt and particulates will still make it through to the intake. Under normal circumstances doing an intake/induction service once every 7 or 8 years certainly is not overkill, nor is it money wasted. I have been a maintenance technician in the Military, I have been an ASE certified auto technician and an ASE certified service advisor and I firmly believe in preventative maintenance. Doing just what the manufacturer recommends only is not always the best way to maintain a car (honestly... lifetime trans fluid? You believe that??) Understand that the manufacturer has no vested interest in your car lasting any longer than the warranty period. What the manufacturer recommends should be considered the bare minimum, above that needs to be determined by the technician which is also why it's a good thing to find a technician/advisor/shop that you trust to maintain your car that way they know you and your vehicle and they will know when something is amiss.

To Coulter I will simply say that, aside from being wrong, your statement regarding service advisors is terribly simple minded as well. I will balance that though by stating that it's a reputation that has been well deserved in the past and still happens too often today but it is getting better. Dealers know that the service department is the lifeblood of the dealership and the ones that want to thrive realize that their reputation is far too valuable to risk on one big ticket. Research the dealership you are considering, don't walk in blindly expecting to be fleeced.

bluebird1

Thanks Coulter. No everything sort of stopped when I mentioned I bought it from you guys CPO 2 years ago. So I am really curious how he is going to handle this.

Where I am confused is... I have the Extra Care Lexus Toyota warranty right here. Under Covered: it says Timing Belt, it does not say when or how it is covered. My guess is, just like the other items, if they need to be changed, faulty, they should be replaced. Again, this guy said it needed to be replaced. When I said to him, isnt that covered, he said quickly, No. It was after that, that I mentioned I bought it there 2 years ago. Maybe he was confused about what kind of warranty I have, it is clearly covered. What I have not gotten answered from you guys is..... so it is only covered if the thing snaps while I am driving?! I dont care the time or the mileage they reccommend. The guy told me it was dangerous. There clear as day on my COVERED list is Timing Belt. Why the heck would it not be covered?

I understand the guy may have been trying to make a sale and it is perfectly fine. But that is his problem. Too late. He shouldnt have lied to make a sale. And if it really does need to be replaced, then do it under warranty, right?!?!

Coulter, I agree with you, about the cleaning out, they should do it and cover it under warranty. But, MDBrown, if they just will not, from what you have mentioned, I will definitely get it done soon. I think they did see something there on that point.

The other lumping stuff, belts hoses timing belt, it did feel like he was lumping it all together and was talking in third person, not specifically my car. Which again, I will ask to see each one myself.

MdBrown, I will definitely do the 90k fluids you recommend. I am like you, preventative. It is also good to hear from everyone that my car is not going to hell in a hand basket anytime soon if I dont do it!

I guess that is the main relief I feel hearing from all of you, that my car is fine for the most part, these things need to be done, but not to lose sleep over it. Plus I feel like I really know my car now and its needs : )

Tomorrow is D day! And I will post and definitely let you guys know what happens! I am really curious myself what my advisor does. If Lexus will live up to their name, the customer is always right. I feel validated by you guys who have also been taken and given me pointers on what to be aware of. I also like your take and approach, MD, because no matter what I have to deal with this dealership. And going in there with an open attitude that they want to help me, while being cautious, is a good way to go.

Thanks a million to each of you. My male friends, either dont know about cars or would not take the time to go this in depth with me. So, thank you for your time and attention. You have helped me tremendously. I do not feel scared or overwhelmed anymore.

. Where is the fine line.

mdbrown

If the timing belt is covered I cannot believe they would want to wait until it fails since that can cause catastrophic damage to the engine. Again, before you go to the dealer call the warranty company and find out the criteria for timing belt replacement - I would venture a guess that if it's covered for maintenance it'll be based on mileage. Make sure too it says timing belt and not timing chain. I've seen Lexus warranties that cover the timing belt tensioner. If the belt is covered I am thinking it will not be covered for maintenance replacement. If that is the case, wait until 90k and have it done. If you have a Toyota dealer in town they can do it for less than the Lexus dealer.

yeldogt

It sounds like you purchased a used lexus that was then covered by the Toyota warranty -- this is a different warranty from the CPO warranty that takes you out to 100k. Used cars are just that -- used .... only CPO cars are certified. Used cars are purchased as is -- so you need an ispection report to know what was done.

The CPO warranty covers you if the timing belt fails before 90k -- if you fail to replace the belt at the proper maintenance point ..... 90k .....and it brakes at 95k -- this is not covered even though the warranty on the CPO is 100k .... any additional damaged done is on the owner.

Now -- since only the belt needs to be replaced -- that is all you need to do ......... the warranty still covers the original tensioners and wpump.

You need to look at the maintenance schedule -- if its due to be replaced then it needs to be replaced on your dime to keep the warranty in place for the other components. If the belt is still within the service life listed in the manual then you are covered for the belt failure and any other damage.

Read the section on what is your responsibility. They don't pay for a new engine if you fail to put oil in it!


Toyota does not have a lifetime fluid in the transmission -- they recommend a 4 quart refresh at 90k

Coulter

What is simple minded about what I said? That service writers are basically salesman? Isn't that true? It doesn't mean that they're all crooks, but it does mean that many have an incentive to oversell their services and most aren't actual technicians. Is any of this untrue?

Here is an excellent article from a former service writer where he discusses all the unethical practices that service writers engage in:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/conf...epartment.html

I rarely take my car to a dealership, but I have had plenty of prior experience with them and almost every single time they try to oversell me with services that I don't need.

Are you really going to tell me with a straight face that the OP's experience sounds like a service writer and dealership that are working with her best interest in mind?

Look, you used to work as a service writer, and I used to work in sales. I will freely admit people in my former industry were often times unethical, but that didn't mean that EVERYONE was. I'm giving my advice because I don't like seeing people taken advantage of and I think that's exactly what this dealership is trying to do.

mdbrown

Sorry, was not clear on this. I didn't mean that Toyota or Lexus had that. It's a BMW thing. Just used it as an example that it's not always good to blindly follow the factory recommended maintenance and do nothing else.

mdbrown

Go back and read what you wrote as if you are a third party. What you wrote implies that most service writers lie about being former technicians and that they all try and oversell and lie about the condition of your car. If you go to the dealer expecting to be cheated guess what? You are going to be cheated... even if the advisor makes a good faith recommendation for a service you will assume that he's trying to pick your pocket. I have no need to read your article, I know what goes on in this business. It's why I am no longer a part of it. I stated as much in what you quoted from me. I also stated to the OP that I didn't think the recommendations sounded kosher to me. Then again I wasn't there so I can't say for certain. Example... and before you try and turn it back on me I'm NOT saying this is what happened but I've seen this kind of thing before...

S.A.: Your car looks like it hasn't had much done outside of oil changes and tire rotations. You've been lucky to go for 9 years without doing very much. In that amount of time you could be looking at some carbon buildup which can cause the injectors to malfunction. I'd recommend the belts and an induction service.

What the customer hears: You haven't been taking care of your car, you haven't done anything to it in 9 years, you are lucky is hasn't burst into flames. Your injectors are all cruded up with carbon and your engine is going to break if you don't do the fuel cleaning now. The belts look like shredded wheat and need to be changed now or you'll be sorry.

Again I am NOT saying this happened to the OP. I have seen this kind of thing first hand too many times. The customer expected to be taken and when the advisor made the recommendations the customer assumed the advisor was simply trying to pick his pocket. Your attitude going in means everything. Perception is reality.

Caveat emptor is as relevant today as it's ever been but don't assume the person you entrusted your car too is trying to sell you a bill of goods until you know that's the case. Make the distinction between recommended items and needed items. Retail automotive service has an awful reputation still, and it has been deserved. There are major efforts to clean this up though and the economy is helping as the pie gets smaller you are less likely to risk your share of it.

I'll end my part of this exchange here since we have gotten off the subject of the OP and yes, I am probably to blame. I'm not saying it's all lollipops and candy canes but I am saying it's not as bad as you make it sound. For me I'd rather pay $150 for a fuel induction service I "might" not need once every 7 or 8 years rather than assume they are all crooks and it's not called for in the manual and have my car fall on it's face trying to make a 70mph lane change due to carbon buildup.

Common sense and erring on the side of caution goes a long way regardless of the issue at hand.

yeldogt

Lifetime fluid is an interesting issue. When the early ZF and Mercedes sealed transmissions were being developed for production in the late 90's transmissions and in fact most cars were junk at 125k. So lifetime was different then what we now understand transmissions can achieve.

We have many fleet cars go 200k miles on the original fluid -- some we never touch.

The early failures in the ZF unit was a pressure problem and the early MB's a bearing -- nothing at all to do with the fluid.

So ...... I like the fact that you can easily do a simple refresh on the lexus units without opening up the transmission. Many of the sealed units used special fluid that was not readily available and was expensive -- a lot of transmissions are damaged by well meaning owners doing service and not using the correct fluid.

bluebird1

The actual warranty is 100k or 3 years. The end of it comes in Feb. It is called Lexus certified pre-owned extra care factory backed service agreement. The actual insurance company is listed as Toyota. And it does list Timing Belt, Timing Idler, Timing Chain, Timing Cover, Timing Gears as covered.

But I hear you guys, they may still only change it at 90k. I do not have the maintenance book with me, in car. But I remember it did say 90k. I am not sure if it also listed 7 years. Bc it is over 7 years. Anyways, we will see.

I agree, it makes no sense to let it snap. But again, it will be very interesting and telling I think how the agent handles it. Whether he was just trying to sell me or it was bad. I will first address that it is listed as covered and he reported it as bad, see what he says.

Nevertheless, I will ask to look at all these things with him, then also take the list to my mechanic and see what he says. And thanks for the further info, made notes.

yeldogt

I have purchased many CPO vehicles -- So yours is a CPO. Having a CPO warranty does not provide coverage for incidental damages caused by not doing the maintenance.


If the belt is due to be replaced because of time or miles --then it is your responsibility. And if they are recommending that it be replaced for that reason -- then they are correct. You don't get scheduled maintenance with the CPO


You can't see the belt without taking parts off the car. If you were getting a noise from the belt and it proved to be bad on inspection prior to the 90k then you would be covered. This is no different than the original 4 year 50k. The consequences of the belt snapping is great - so Toyota puts a conservative replacement interval on the belt.

The belt replacement is not different than the 3 year brake fluid flush or the 5 year coolant change.

Coulter

So you're admitting a lot of unethical behavior goes on with the dealership service writers in general, that's it's a big reason why you left, and that in the OP's specific case, the service writer was likely making up a bunch of bogus repairs . But I'm simple minded to point out that this happens all the time?

Whatever you say.

bluebird1

yeldogt, I was not planning on getting scheduled maintenance from the warranty. Maybe you missed it, my car is only 80k. I was never thinking anything about the timing belt until the agent specifically told me it was bad, cracks in it etc. THEN went on to say my warranty does not cover it. If he was talking plain maintenance he would have said do it soon or at 90k. But he was making a note to tell me it needed changing now and that it was NOT covered, which as you can imagine was very confusing to me. Since, plain as day it is listed as covered. That is my dilemma. I think he may have not done his homework on either my warranty situation or the maint. on my car for the timing belt. Either way, he was off about something. Will figure it out tom. Try to have him clarify to see what he was meaning or thinking.