2VZ-FE to 3VZ-FE swap in ES250
03-05-12, 07:48 AM
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2VZ-FE to 3VZ-FE swap in ES250
OK, so there was some interest to hear how (and perhaps why?) I have done this engine swap. Of all the cars, I selected a manual ES250 to do the 24hr endurance race at VIR last year in the CCWS series. 19 hours after the green flag we learned the hard way why the 2VZ-FE is reputed to have a weak bottom end as something just snapped. There were no bearing failures, no overheating, no knocks, just a big bang that broke the crankshaft in two pieces, took out two rods, the block broke, two pistons, the whole main bearings galley... I had probably 10 lbs of metal down in the oil pan. When this happened we were running solidly mid-pack, and before you scoff at the event let's just say that there are several NASCAR teams participating, and that the winning car was built and campaigned by Bill Riley (Yes, same Riley whose cars took all 3 podium places at the 24hr at Daytona this year.)
So, for 2012 should we do a new car, a new 2VZ-FE engine or swap for a 3VZ-FE? I went for the last option. More power and better reliability is good! I got the new drivetrain from a 1992 ES300 - also a manual - which ran fine but had a poor clutch, destroyed engine mounts and a leaky head gasket. Rebuilt the engine, and started considering the options for assembly. Decided on the ES300 tranny (which was having better synchros) and the ES250 clutch. For the engine, I strongly considered using the very good ES250 heads which would have allowed using the ES250 exhaust and fuel injection, thus also keeping the ES250 ECU. I still think this would work, but admittedly I never measured the block height to make sure (If the 3VZ block is higher you would get more distance between the heads and the intake would not fit. If it is only the crank that differs it could work) The primary reason for staying with the ES300 heads was from comparing the camshafts where the ES300 cams have a lot more valve lift. Staying with the ES250 cams would likely starve the 3.0. I looked at switching the cams over to the ES250 heads, but the main difference in the head castings is that the ES250 heads have much smaller diameter shims for the valve lifters so the high lift cams from the ES300 were pushing too much on the side on the shims to make me comfortable - I think you would get too much side forces and could destroy the alu heads. Thus, I milled and cleaned the ES300 heads and looked for the best head gaskets. Custom made copper gaskets were too expensive, so at the end I settled for Victor Nitroseal gaskets from the NAPA store. New head bolts of course.
After assemblying the engine came getting it into the car. You have to use the 2VZ-FE engine mounts, and they can all be made to fit. There is a strange center mount on the ES250 on the back of the engine that only has a horizontal rubber bushing, but I had to leave it out as there are no mounts for it on the 3VZ block. Does not seem critical. The right side engine mount from the ES250 interfere with the cam belt cover on the 3VZ engine. One could cut the bottom of the cam belt cover to fit, but I found it easier to just leave it off. The 3VZ has a large cast aluminium stiffener between the crankcase and the bottom of the clutch bellhousing, and it will interfere with the longitudinal engine mount beam on the ES250 so that casting must be left out. Now, the engine is in and is solidly mounted. As noted in a different thread, I would need to use the bearing bracket from the 3VZ-FE but stupidly I threw it away with the bad driveshaft thinking these brackets were the same. They are not, and the 2VZ-FE bracket does not line up with the mounting holes in the 3VZ-FE block.
Next came the things that don't fit. The exhaust must be custom built. Instead of the strange over transmission routing on the ES250 you route the front pipe down and under the oil pan. Unfortunately the ES300 pipe would interfere with the ES250 front engine mount so you must do a custom routing to get it more over to the right but luckily there is a kink on the front sway bar allowing you to sneak the exhaust pipe down between the sway bar and the engine. (Looks like it was designed to accommodate such an exhaust routing as I never could figure out why the kink was there for the ES250 configuration)
The electrical wiring is all different, almost no connectors would fit so as I anyway have to use the ES300 ECU I went ahead switching the whole engine room harness to the one from the ES300. Now I also get two of the 3 ECU connectors right. The 3rd ECU connector I haven't really decided yet for how to do. I can use the same 22 pin connector that is in the ES250 harness, but unfortunately they have moved some of the pins around so I'd need to either move the pins or re-route the wiring. Alternatively - and most likely - I will use the ES300 harness that holds this connector. This is the harness that goes across the instrument panel and out on the driver's side to the relay/fuse box in the left front corner of the engine compartment. As I anyway already had moved the battery and kill switch inside the car I may just continue bringing also the relay/fuse box in?
As for the placement of the ES300 ECU, it is mounted over to the right behind the glove box so the ES300 harness will not reach to where the ES250 ECU sat behind the center console. Some kind of bracket will have to be fabricated to hold the ECU over where the harness comes in to make it work.
I also have to figure out the cooling system - I'd like to be able to use the tried and tested ES250 radiator, but when that day comes I must see how it works with the different radiator hose routing for the ES300 where you have the radiator cap up on top of the engine. No big deal compared to the other things.
Small things to consider is that the mechanical speedometer drive from the ES250 gearbox did fit the ES300 tranny - you just had to take the electronic sensor out. It was also easier using the ES250 clutch hydraulics as the ES300 hydraulics interferred with the front engine mount. It would not have been a big deal to make it fit either way.
In a couple of weeks I will know more - trying to get the car up and running for a 7 + 7 hr race up in Pittsburgh mid-April. Memo to self: "Warning, dates in the calendar are closer than they appear."
If you like to see pictures or to follow what we do there is a facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Scuder...4812188?ref=ts
Mostly just crappy cell phone pictures of the install, but if you scroll through the pictures you will also find some pretty nice pictures of the car while racing at VIR courtesy of other more skilled photographers.
Questions or comments are all welcome!
So, for 2012 should we do a new car, a new 2VZ-FE engine or swap for a 3VZ-FE? I went for the last option. More power and better reliability is good! I got the new drivetrain from a 1992 ES300 - also a manual - which ran fine but had a poor clutch, destroyed engine mounts and a leaky head gasket. Rebuilt the engine, and started considering the options for assembly. Decided on the ES300 tranny (which was having better synchros) and the ES250 clutch. For the engine, I strongly considered using the very good ES250 heads which would have allowed using the ES250 exhaust and fuel injection, thus also keeping the ES250 ECU. I still think this would work, but admittedly I never measured the block height to make sure (If the 3VZ block is higher you would get more distance between the heads and the intake would not fit. If it is only the crank that differs it could work) The primary reason for staying with the ES300 heads was from comparing the camshafts where the ES300 cams have a lot more valve lift. Staying with the ES250 cams would likely starve the 3.0. I looked at switching the cams over to the ES250 heads, but the main difference in the head castings is that the ES250 heads have much smaller diameter shims for the valve lifters so the high lift cams from the ES300 were pushing too much on the side on the shims to make me comfortable - I think you would get too much side forces and could destroy the alu heads. Thus, I milled and cleaned the ES300 heads and looked for the best head gaskets. Custom made copper gaskets were too expensive, so at the end I settled for Victor Nitroseal gaskets from the NAPA store. New head bolts of course.
After assemblying the engine came getting it into the car. You have to use the 2VZ-FE engine mounts, and they can all be made to fit. There is a strange center mount on the ES250 on the back of the engine that only has a horizontal rubber bushing, but I had to leave it out as there are no mounts for it on the 3VZ block. Does not seem critical. The right side engine mount from the ES250 interfere with the cam belt cover on the 3VZ engine. One could cut the bottom of the cam belt cover to fit, but I found it easier to just leave it off. The 3VZ has a large cast aluminium stiffener between the crankcase and the bottom of the clutch bellhousing, and it will interfere with the longitudinal engine mount beam on the ES250 so that casting must be left out. Now, the engine is in and is solidly mounted. As noted in a different thread, I would need to use the bearing bracket from the 3VZ-FE but stupidly I threw it away with the bad driveshaft thinking these brackets were the same. They are not, and the 2VZ-FE bracket does not line up with the mounting holes in the 3VZ-FE block.
Next came the things that don't fit. The exhaust must be custom built. Instead of the strange over transmission routing on the ES250 you route the front pipe down and under the oil pan. Unfortunately the ES300 pipe would interfere with the ES250 front engine mount so you must do a custom routing to get it more over to the right but luckily there is a kink on the front sway bar allowing you to sneak the exhaust pipe down between the sway bar and the engine. (Looks like it was designed to accommodate such an exhaust routing as I never could figure out why the kink was there for the ES250 configuration)
The electrical wiring is all different, almost no connectors would fit so as I anyway have to use the ES300 ECU I went ahead switching the whole engine room harness to the one from the ES300. Now I also get two of the 3 ECU connectors right. The 3rd ECU connector I haven't really decided yet for how to do. I can use the same 22 pin connector that is in the ES250 harness, but unfortunately they have moved some of the pins around so I'd need to either move the pins or re-route the wiring. Alternatively - and most likely - I will use the ES300 harness that holds this connector. This is the harness that goes across the instrument panel and out on the driver's side to the relay/fuse box in the left front corner of the engine compartment. As I anyway already had moved the battery and kill switch inside the car I may just continue bringing also the relay/fuse box in?
As for the placement of the ES300 ECU, it is mounted over to the right behind the glove box so the ES300 harness will not reach to where the ES250 ECU sat behind the center console. Some kind of bracket will have to be fabricated to hold the ECU over where the harness comes in to make it work.
I also have to figure out the cooling system - I'd like to be able to use the tried and tested ES250 radiator, but when that day comes I must see how it works with the different radiator hose routing for the ES300 where you have the radiator cap up on top of the engine. No big deal compared to the other things.
Small things to consider is that the mechanical speedometer drive from the ES250 gearbox did fit the ES300 tranny - you just had to take the electronic sensor out. It was also easier using the ES250 clutch hydraulics as the ES300 hydraulics interferred with the front engine mount. It would not have been a big deal to make it fit either way.
In a couple of weeks I will know more - trying to get the car up and running for a 7 + 7 hr race up in Pittsburgh mid-April. Memo to self: "Warning, dates in the calendar are closer than they appear."
If you like to see pictures or to follow what we do there is a facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Scuder...4812188?ref=ts
Mostly just crappy cell phone pictures of the install, but if you scroll through the pictures you will also find some pretty nice pictures of the car while racing at VIR courtesy of other more skilled photographers.
Questions or comments are all welcome!
03-05-12, 05:52 PM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
i actually read everything again for the second time...
it's pretty darn amazing what you are doing.
but please....you do need to check out the 3vz facebook group, some people on might have parts you could really use. one guy got some copper headgaskets he designed he's using and selling.
it's pretty darn amazing what you are doing.
but please....you do need to check out the 3vz facebook group, some people on might have parts you could really use. one guy got some copper headgaskets he designed he's using and selling.
03-05-12, 06:16 PM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
After reading that, it is discouraging me from attempting this swap myself. The main thing I am worried about is the electrical, I don't really want to rip my interior to shreds. Great write-up though, can't wait to see how it all turns out. 
03-12-12, 07:46 AM
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For some reason I got kicked out and cannot log back in, so had to use another account to post some update info about the swap.
Yes, electrics are not simple as neither the ECU wiring nor almost anything on the engine harness will match. To make it worse, even things that are similar - say ingition switch or circuit opening relay - are wired differently so you really have to take things patiently wiring one wire at a time. I'm using the engine harness and ECU from the ES300, but connecting it to the instrument cluster and the relay boxes of the ES250.
Front exhaust pipe was tricky to fit, VERY little space between oil pan, center driveshaft, engine mounts and crossmember. I only use 2 1/4" tubing but still have at best 1 mm clearance in all directions. I can understand why Toyota routed the exhaust over the tranny for the 2VZ-FE.
Final challenge right now is that the center driveshaft bracket from the 2VZ does not fit the 3VZ block. I have installed a 3VZ bracket, but the bearing sits maybe 1/2" closer to the gearbox so now I must use also a 3VZ center driveshaft which is shorter. As I am still working on this I do not yet know if I must fabricate a spacer to go between the center driveshaft and the right CV shaft, if the ES250 CV shaft can extend far enough to reach anyway, if the ES300 CV shafts are longer and can fit the hubs or... Always some interesting problems to solve when building a Frankenstein car!
Yes, electrics are not simple as neither the ECU wiring nor almost anything on the engine harness will match. To make it worse, even things that are similar - say ingition switch or circuit opening relay - are wired differently so you really have to take things patiently wiring one wire at a time. I'm using the engine harness and ECU from the ES300, but connecting it to the instrument cluster and the relay boxes of the ES250.
Front exhaust pipe was tricky to fit, VERY little space between oil pan, center driveshaft, engine mounts and crossmember. I only use 2 1/4" tubing but still have at best 1 mm clearance in all directions. I can understand why Toyota routed the exhaust over the tranny for the 2VZ-FE.
Final challenge right now is that the center driveshaft bracket from the 2VZ does not fit the 3VZ block. I have installed a 3VZ bracket, but the bearing sits maybe 1/2" closer to the gearbox so now I must use also a 3VZ center driveshaft which is shorter. As I am still working on this I do not yet know if I must fabricate a spacer to go between the center driveshaft and the right CV shaft, if the ES250 CV shaft can extend far enough to reach anyway, if the ES300 CV shafts are longer and can fit the hubs or... Always some interesting problems to solve when building a Frankenstein car!
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03-26-12, 01:28 PM
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A quick update (from a different log-in...) on the progress of the swap. There are certainly some challenges but they are so far of the kind that can be overcome. Had to move to the ES250 power steering pump (which I should have seen before installing the one that came with the 3VZ-FE engine) but mounting brackets from the 2VZ did fit. I keep working on wiring, did all the vacuum hoses, cooling system, alternator etc this weekend. There is no clearance between the radiator cap and the shock tower bar. The main cooling fan hits the flange on the 3VZ-FE exhaust manifold, so I trimmed the blades but should really move to a fan in front of the radiator instead for better clearance.
Certainly small things to make life interesting!
Certainly small things to make life interesting!
03-26-12, 09:28 PM
#9
Lexus Test Driver
great progress!
maybe shave a tiny bit off the strut tower bar to give a bit room....or just build another beefy one all together?
about the radiator, are you gonna use the hydrolic fan run by the PS fluid or convert to electric?
I say convert to electric! make sure you have a PS ATF cooler or your PS pump will blow up, mine did when i did my 5SFE to 3VZ-FE swap on my camry and deleted the cooler
maybe shave a tiny bit off the strut tower bar to give a bit room....or just build another beefy one all together?
about the radiator, are you gonna use the hydrolic fan run by the PS fluid or convert to electric?
I say convert to electric! make sure you have a PS ATF cooler or your PS pump will blow up, mine did when i did my 5SFE to 3VZ-FE swap on my camry and deleted the cooler
04-06-12, 05:42 PM
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So, time for an update. I got the engine running - check out Youtube and search for 3VZ-FE Lexus ES250
I must admit that the wiring was challenging - there are zero similarities between the ES250 and ES300 for the wiring, everything is different.
From a parts perspective, I ended up using the ES250 radiator so now I have two radiator caps. Should be allright. I have electric fans, but will later move them and install push fans in front of the radiator as it is too close to the exhaust as they sit now. I used the ES250 alternator and power steering pump but had to order an odd 3 groove 325mm belt as the pulleys on the crankshaft and ps pumps were both different. I could use the ES250 strut brace, just bent it enough to give a little bit of clearance. I could use the original ES250 throttle wire, but deleted the cruise control stull and brought the wire directly to the intake. Works fine, and I do get full throttle opening. For now I just got a cheap aftermarket air filter from Advance and mounted it directly to the air flow sensor, then brought a tube from the filter out behind the left headlight. It would have been better to move the filter forward and do some shields, but there is not enough time until our next race so I have to live with this solution for now.
So now it is just on to other stuff preparing for the race. New brakes and such... Should be ready to drive it around the block tomorrow.
I must admit that the wiring was challenging - there are zero similarities between the ES250 and ES300 for the wiring, everything is different.
From a parts perspective, I ended up using the ES250 radiator so now I have two radiator caps. Should be allright. I have electric fans, but will later move them and install push fans in front of the radiator as it is too close to the exhaust as they sit now. I used the ES250 alternator and power steering pump but had to order an odd 3 groove 325mm belt as the pulleys on the crankshaft and ps pumps were both different. I could use the ES250 strut brace, just bent it enough to give a little bit of clearance. I could use the original ES250 throttle wire, but deleted the cruise control stull and brought the wire directly to the intake. Works fine, and I do get full throttle opening. For now I just got a cheap aftermarket air filter from Advance and mounted it directly to the air flow sensor, then brought a tube from the filter out behind the left headlight. It would have been better to move the filter forward and do some shields, but there is not enough time until our next race so I have to live with this solution for now.
So now it is just on to other stuff preparing for the race. New brakes and such... Should be ready to drive it around the block tomorrow.
Really glad you choose to do something no one does. Keep up the great work!
04-06-12, 09:02 PM
#13
Lexus Test Driver
keep up the good work! thats stellar progress. I always wondered if this was possible.
3vz > 2vz
the extra power will probably make your little ES a monster!
3vz > 2vz
the extra power will probably make your little ES a monster!
04-24-12, 12:21 PM
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Short update - yes, the ES250 ran really good with the 3vz-fe and we posted some unexpectedly good lap times. Unfortunately the new engine threw a rod after only one hour so apart from rebuilding the bottom end I will also add an Accusump to make sure we keep the oil pressure up in the turns.
The only additional comment about the engine swap is that I did kill one CV shaft thinking that there was enough extension in the CV shaft to connect it directly to the 3vz-fe center driveshaft. It did not work. I had a 1/2" spacer machined to go between the center driveshaft flange and the CV shaft and then things worked fine. (Alternatively one could have made a new mount for the 2vz-fe center driveshaft to mount to the 3vz-fe engine, but the spacer seemed easier to do) There were no other issues related to the engine swap.
The only additional comment about the engine swap is that I did kill one CV shaft thinking that there was enough extension in the CV shaft to connect it directly to the 3vz-fe center driveshaft. It did not work. I had a 1/2" spacer machined to go between the center driveshaft flange and the CV shaft and then things worked fine. (Alternatively one could have made a new mount for the 2vz-fe center driveshaft to mount to the 3vz-fe engine, but the spacer seemed easier to do) There were no other issues related to the engine swap.
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