Sporting it up a bit
10-08-12, 08:06 PM
#16
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Yup, a small increase in the diameter of the sway bar results is a large increase in rate so these Whiteline bars are quite stiff. 24mm front bar is 216% stiffer than stock, 20mm rear is 144% stiffer than stock. I have an Avalon 17mm rear sway I was going to use before I got the Whitelines, that would be 27% stiffer than stock. At some point I may calculate the actual wheel rates for comparison.
In the case of this Camry chassis the stock springs are soft, and the sway bars are modest, for good ride and passable handling. Stiffer springs could bring better handling but there are no good springs for this car and no good performance shocks to pair with those spring. Even if we did have the parts available, do we want a true sport suspension on a fancy Camry?
Enter the sway bar...lots of additional spring in roll where you want it, pretty much the same as stock ride over the road. Not a perfect solution but does a nice job. I was really after the feel rather than the ultimate limits.
EEngineer already been down that road with my WRX (and my SRT-4 and many other cars) No desire for an exhaust and this car does not need a brake upgrade couldn't imagine doing a track day with this beast haha. Now I race a ZX3 in H-Stock with some Friends much cheaper.
I know everybody loves pics, thought about snapping some iPhone pics on the lift, but who wants to see some rusty bits with a new sway bar.
In the case of this Camry chassis the stock springs are soft, and the sway bars are modest, for good ride and passable handling. Stiffer springs could bring better handling but there are no good springs for this car and no good performance shocks to pair with those spring. Even if we did have the parts available, do we want a true sport suspension on a fancy Camry?
Enter the sway bar...lots of additional spring in roll where you want it, pretty much the same as stock ride over the road. Not a perfect solution but does a nice job. I was really after the feel rather than the ultimate limits.
EEngineer already been down that road with my WRX (and my SRT-4 and many other cars) No desire for an exhaust and this car does not need a brake upgrade couldn't imagine doing a track day with this beast haha. Now I race a ZX3 in H-Stock with some Friends much cheaper.
I know everybody loves pics, thought about snapping some iPhone pics on the lift, but who wants to see some rusty bits with a new sway bar.
10-08-12, 09:00 PM
#17
Yup, a small increase in the diameter of the sway bar results is a large increase in rate so these Whiteline bars are quite stiff. 24mm front bar is 216% stiffer than stock, 20mm rear is 144% stiffer than stock. I have an Avalon 17mm rear sway I was going to use before I got the Whitelines, that would be 27% stiffer than stock. At some point I may calculate the actual wheel rates for comparison.
In the case of this Camry chassis the stock springs are soft, and the sway bars are modest, for good ride and passable handling. Stiffer springs could bring better handling but there are no good springs for this car and no good performance shocks to pair with those spring. Even if we did have the parts available, do we want a true sport suspension on a fancy Camry?
Enter the sway bar...lots of additional spring in roll where you want it, pretty much the same as stock ride over the road. Not a perfect solution but does a nice job. I was really after the feel rather than the ultimate limits.
EEngineer already been down that road with my WRX (and my SRT-4 and many other cars) No desire for an exhaust and this car does not need a brake upgrade couldn't imagine doing a track day with this beast haha. Now I race a ZX3 in H-Stock with some Friends much cheaper.
I know everybody loves pics, thought about snapping some iPhone pics on the lift, but who wants to see some rusty bits with a new sway bar.
In the case of this Camry chassis the stock springs are soft, and the sway bars are modest, for good ride and passable handling. Stiffer springs could bring better handling but there are no good springs for this car and no good performance shocks to pair with those spring. Even if we did have the parts available, do we want a true sport suspension on a fancy Camry?
Enter the sway bar...lots of additional spring in roll where you want it, pretty much the same as stock ride over the road. Not a perfect solution but does a nice job. I was really after the feel rather than the ultimate limits.
EEngineer already been down that road with my WRX (and my SRT-4 and many other cars) No desire for an exhaust and this car does not need a brake upgrade couldn't imagine doing a track day with this beast haha. Now I race a ZX3 in H-Stock with some Friends much cheaper.
I know everybody loves pics, thought about snapping some iPhone pics on the lift, but who wants to see some rusty bits with a new sway bar.
10-09-12, 08:49 AM
#18
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
^^I say that because the typical product is a "lowering spring" i.e. the goal is to reduce the ride height while retaining ride comfort and to not to blow the stock shocks.
Within those limitations a proper handling spring cannot exist. A better handling spring will need a higher spring rate than the stock shocks can handle, and would have a higher ride height than the lowering spring buyer wants. The handling spring depends on the availability of a quality shock tuned properly, like a Koni or Bilstein.
Cars with motorsport applications and large club racer/enthusiast followings will drive product availability. The Camry chassis does not have that. So here we are. It is a major investment to stamp strut bodies and wind springs. Japanese do not share stampings like European mfrs do. I can't disagree, I don't really care myself to have a sport suspension Camry I like my ride as is.
Now inexpensive coilovers, those are sort of changing the game. With standardized springs, and shock bodies, all that needs to be done for a new app is to weld or thread on a new lower clevis clamp. Upside is price and availability, customization option with springs. Downside here is the ease of production has flooded the market with cheap junk. A shock is a precision piece that needs tight tolerances to work properly as well as vehicle dynamics engineer to tune the damping. Most of the Taiwanese product out there is low quality, and there is not anyone tuning the damping, it is "adjustable" which is a laugh since the cost to produce an accurate "adjustable" damper is beyond the retail price of the whole coilover set...
There are good coilovers though, KW, AST etc. BC is popular, not a fan myself but they are coming up in the world, soon they will have a quality damper and be a good option.
The H&R springs, claim to lower 1.4/1.3 inches. On the Camry boards they are known to work ok with the stock and stock replacement shocks. I'd say these are too low and too soft. A circa 200 lb-in set of springs .5-1 inch lower, over a street/sport valved Bilstein or Koni would be awesome on this car (or any car really), for the all heralded "BMW-like" ride and good handling on the road.
There are a ton of points here anyone could disagree with which is fine, this is just my opinion as an enthusiast who values function over form. I gathered a lot of this building the suspension in my SRT-4 and then WRX over a number of years and a few different setups.
P.S. i was thinking about Swift, they make some of the best springs out there. Looks like they do make a spring for the 97-01 Camry 4T003. 168 lbs-in front, 203 rear (notice how a good spring company publishes the rates). Lowers 1.2 front and .8 rear. Now there is a pretty decent spring. Not sure how the stock shocks would fare, maybe pair it with a Tokico blue and see how it goes. Or see what it takes to modify the previous gen Blistein struts to fit the 4th gen Camry. Not going down that road myself but that is what I would do...
Within those limitations a proper handling spring cannot exist. A better handling spring will need a higher spring rate than the stock shocks can handle, and would have a higher ride height than the lowering spring buyer wants. The handling spring depends on the availability of a quality shock tuned properly, like a Koni or Bilstein.
Cars with motorsport applications and large club racer/enthusiast followings will drive product availability. The Camry chassis does not have that. So here we are. It is a major investment to stamp strut bodies and wind springs. Japanese do not share stampings like European mfrs do. I can't disagree, I don't really care myself to have a sport suspension Camry I like my ride as is.
Now inexpensive coilovers, those are sort of changing the game. With standardized springs, and shock bodies, all that needs to be done for a new app is to weld or thread on a new lower clevis clamp. Upside is price and availability, customization option with springs. Downside here is the ease of production has flooded the market with cheap junk. A shock is a precision piece that needs tight tolerances to work properly as well as vehicle dynamics engineer to tune the damping. Most of the Taiwanese product out there is low quality, and there is not anyone tuning the damping, it is "adjustable" which is a laugh since the cost to produce an accurate "adjustable" damper is beyond the retail price of the whole coilover set...
There are good coilovers though, KW, AST etc. BC is popular, not a fan myself but they are coming up in the world, soon they will have a quality damper and be a good option.
The H&R springs, claim to lower 1.4/1.3 inches. On the Camry boards they are known to work ok with the stock and stock replacement shocks. I'd say these are too low and too soft. A circa 200 lb-in set of springs .5-1 inch lower, over a street/sport valved Bilstein or Koni would be awesome on this car (or any car really), for the all heralded "BMW-like" ride and good handling on the road.
There are a ton of points here anyone could disagree with which is fine, this is just my opinion as an enthusiast who values function over form. I gathered a lot of this building the suspension in my SRT-4 and then WRX over a number of years and a few different setups.
P.S. i was thinking about Swift, they make some of the best springs out there. Looks like they do make a spring for the 97-01 Camry 4T003. 168 lbs-in front, 203 rear (notice how a good spring company publishes the rates). Lowers 1.2 front and .8 rear. Now there is a pretty decent spring. Not sure how the stock shocks would fare, maybe pair it with a Tokico blue and see how it goes. Or see what it takes to modify the previous gen Blistein struts to fit the 4th gen Camry. Not going down that road myself but that is what I would do...
10-10-12, 07:26 PM
#20
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
I wasn't sure about the avalon bar either, I thought it might be bigger so I ordered a bushing for it and measured, only cost a few bucks to find out. Found out the front bar is not any bigger on the Avalon.
If anyone wants that Avalon bar let me know I did not use it, will bolt right on same bar just 1mm thicker.
If anyone wants that Avalon bar let me know I did not use it, will bolt right on same bar just 1mm thicker.
10-21-12, 01:22 PM
#21
Driver School Candidate
i have a 2004 lexus es330 btw
10-22-12, 06:23 AM
#22
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
I lowered my tire pressure down to 29 cold from 36 cold recently, the ride got smoother over the pavement cracks. The RE760 is still a performance tire so the cornering is not affected much if at all.
I had missed this post. At least by the front spring rates you should have all the roll stiffness you need with those rates and stock bar, the rear spring rates are a quite a bit softer so you could always add a rear bar, though if you are happy with the way it drives now and not tracking the car, probably best to leave it alone!
I had missed this post. At least by the front spring rates you should have all the roll stiffness you need with those rates and stock bar, the rear spring rates are a quite a bit softer so you could always add a rear bar, though if you are happy with the way it drives now and not tracking the car, probably best to leave it alone!
10-22-12, 06:44 AM
#23
Pole Position
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I had missed this post. At least by the front spring rates you should have all the roll stiffness you need with those rates and stock bar, the rear spring rates are a quite a bit softer so you could always add a rear bar, though if you are happy with the way it drives now and not tracking the car, probably best to leave it alone!
talk about BEEFY!
12-13-12, 07:11 PM
#26
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
You don't even need the coilovers, there is barely any body roll with just the bars. They are thick and this car has direct acting end-links. I need to calculate the spring rates on these, I am guessing they add 300-500lb in of spring.
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