Threxx

Umm... I meant like a link to a press release or quote or anything like that. In the information age it's far too easy to just name a name without giving any credible proof.

There's a lot of "common knowledge" that gets passed around so much that even the most knowledgable people assume it's true without actually sourcing the facts.

It's what is also known as a rumor

Main Entry: ruˇmor
Pronunciation: 'rü-mor
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2 : a statement or report current without known authority for its truth

flipside909

Haha, you're kidding right? Honda has yet to make a automatic tranny last. Good example? The auto trannys for the V6 Accord, TL , Odyssey, CL, MDX...need I say more? Lexus has the proof of reliability/durability in the awards it has won...as well as their sales figures. Acura can only envy the sales figures and customer satisfaction of Lexus...let alone Honda to Toyota.

flipside909

Whoa whoa whoa...you're wrong! The ES300 aka Windom has been riding on the Camry chassis since 1990 when it was introduced as the ES250. The CAMRY platform is something the ES has ridden and will always ride on whether you like it or not. How do I know this? Just look at the timetable for the Camry. The Camry has been around longer than the ES/Windom label...considering the fact that is was built and still is built of the Camry chassis. Call me a Camry platform historian if you will.

flipside909

You are so wrong with your facts. This is the breakdown of chassis. The chassis is straight Camry whether you like it or not. Yes both the Camry and ES share the same chassis and powertrain...but the difference is in the body design, parts, and the other obvious things. Deep down inside...that frame and motor the ES/Windom rides on has always been and ALWAYS BE on the Camry chassis (Avalon, Highlander, Sienna and RX included) not the other way around as you like to put it. If you don't believe me, call up TMS in Torrance...or better yet...TMC in Japan.

VZV21 (2VZ-FE 2.5L Cast Iron V6):
1988-1991 Camry V6 Gen2
1990-1991 ES250 Gen1

VCV10 (3VZ-FE 3.0L Cast Iron V6):
1992-1993 Camry V6 Gen3
1992 -1993 ES300 Gen2

MCV10 (1MZ-FE 3.0L Aluminum V6):
1994-1996 Camry V6 Gen3
1994-1996 ES300 Gen2

MCV20 (1MZ-FE 3.0L Aluminum V6)
1997-2001 Camry V6 Gen4
1999-2003 Camry Solara V6 Gen1
1997-2001 ES300 (VVT-i added in 99) Gen3

MCV30 (1MZ-FE 3.0L Aluminum V6)
2002-up Camry V6 Gen5
2002-up ES300 Gen4

Nabeel

I know the ES250 was based directly off the '88-'91 Camry, that is obvious because that bodystyle Camry was already on the market at that time. However, I recall numerous old magazine articles stating that in '92, when the new bodystyle ES300/Camry was introduced, the platform was designed first to be a Lexus/Windom, and later adopted for the Camry. Also, both the Lexus and Toyota dealers pointed this out when we bought our ES300 10 years ago. Since the platform remained mostly the same in the '97 redesign, I would assume this was the case until at least '01. I have no problem whatsoever with the car riding on the same platform as the Camry, Camrys are damn good cars. If I have time (I'm in the middle of midterms week), I'll dig up some old Car and Driver/Road and Track magazine tests of the '92 ES300, just to prove myself right.

Nabeel

Ah, looking back through my posts in this thread, I can see where you may be misinterpreting what I said flipside909. I never once claimed that the ES300/Camry did not share the same platform. What I am saying is that during the design stages of the car, the platform was built first with the ES300/Windom in mind, and later in the design process the platform was used for the then-new Camry.

flipside909

"both the Lexus and Toyota dealers pointed this out"

That's where the credibility of your sources are false. First of all...ANY salesman from ANY dealer will tell you anything to get you to buy a car....even if it's a blatant lie. The best liars out there are car salesman...even at Lexus sorry to say. If you check your Toyota history, the ES/windom is, has and always will be based off the Camry chassis.

BTW, I didn't misinterpret ANYTHING you posted. You can analogize this topic as "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" The Camry came first...and the chassis that the ES/Windom rides on comes from the Camry.

Nabeel

1) I could imagine a Toyota dealer saying that their car rides on a Lexus platform, but do you think Lexus dealers will do vice versa?

2) You still don't understand....I never said the ES300 does not share a platform with the Camry. Read my post above for an explanation.

flipside909

Nope, you read my above post over again.

flipside909

You think most Lexus dealers or let alone majority of the Lexus Owners themselves realize or recognize their car is made in Japan by Toyota Motor Corporation and that Lexus is only a subsidary of Toyota? Most likely not.

Nabeel

Arrrrghhh...I'm not disputing that the Camry came first. I'm talking about the '92 redesign, not the '90 intoduction of the ES250. There is no question the ES250 was spun off the contemporary Camry. However, i still say that during the '92 redesign of both cars, the platform design work was initially concentrated on the ES300/Windom and later in the process taken up by the Camry. The rationale for this is that at the time, Lexus was still an upstart luxury brand, and they wanted to take no chances with thier new car. Lexus did not want the car to seem out of place next to their LS400 and SC coupes, and made sure that the platform was built to the highest standards possible. This turned out to be wonderful, as the Camry also gained a luxury-level platform and rocketed to the top of its class after the redesign.

Nabeel

Hehe, I'm done with this thread until I go to the library and look through the magazine archives, and find some old ES300 road tests that will prove my point.

flipside909

This is and endless argument. Can we talk about the ES vs GS discussion please? If you want to further discuss this, PM me.

Thanks,
Ryan
-Moderator

flipside909

You don't have to prove anything at all. Just go back to your midterm studying before you place yourself on AP to research something small like this.

Nabeel

Sweet, one less thing for me to do. No complaints here .

Anyway, getting back to the original post topic........

I would personally choose a GS over an ES, mostly just for the RWD and better handling balance, plus a lot more aftermarket potential. But seeing your fiance's needs, I think the ES300 should do the job, and save some money as well. Then again, if you were not pleased after driving a CL, you might think the ES300 feels too much like a Camry. Another thing you might want to keep in mind is that the GS is due to be redesigned soon. This will bring the value down on the '98-'03 models. Nothing to be overly worried about, but just something to consider. Speaking of which, if you wait a while then you could compare the new GS to the ES300, and see what you and your fiance prefer.