Vibration at high speed: driving me nuts!
09-13-18, 04:40 AM
#16
I’m sorry I didn’t see the mounts. I know it’s not the answer you wanna hear, but this actually very well could be in the rims or tires. My 1950 Chevy had a straight up death wobble between 55 and 80 mph. I literally crashed and reamed in new bearings into some of the steering components, but the cure ended up being a couple reproduction steel wheels to replace the old bent ones
why don’t you put dial indicator on the very outside lip of your rims? Don’t know the tolerance but I can tell you any more than .002 at the rotor is a fail, so figure the same or maybe a smidge more at the rim.
also, I don’t believe that about sticky weights. Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Bugatti‘s, porches, And daily used high performance Audi BMW Lexus all use sticky weights only. Wheel balancing is a science, though
why don’t you put dial indicator on the very outside lip of your rims? Don’t know the tolerance but I can tell you any more than .002 at the rotor is a fail, so figure the same or maybe a smidge more at the rim.
also, I don’t believe that about sticky weights. Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Bugatti‘s, porches, And daily used high performance Audi BMW Lexus all use sticky weights only. Wheel balancing is a science, though
09-13-18, 09:26 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Vibration problems like this are almost always wheels and tires. You even said you had one moved because it was causing vibration.
09-13-18, 11:14 AM
#19
Diagnosis:
1st test drive: technician did not feel the vibration
2nd test drive: felt minor vibration, nothing violent as described
wheel bearings have no play or any issues according to the shop
1st test drive: technician did not feel the vibration
2nd test drive: felt minor vibration, nothing violent as described
wheel bearings have no play or any issues according to the shop
Motor mounts are unlikely for the high-speed vibration, but can be checked easily. The 3es is much more robust in this regard than the 4es, so you have that going for you. Put a quarter on the engine cover and see how much it vibrates at idle. It shouldn't. Rev the engine and see how much it moves. It should move very little. A clear lurch on either main axis will be the giveaway.
Something else to consider - how is your mileage? Are you getting the stated MPGs you should expect (use the epa guidelines, for example), or less?
Last edited by Oro; 09-13-18 at 11:26 AM.
09-13-18, 05:20 PM
#20
Ask them how this was determined, because it sounds like it was pretty casual. It is pretty simple to jack the car and check the play and feel the coils. Not that many mechanics are that skilled, honestly. If they don't hear the typical groaning noise emanating from the hub, they pronounce them good. These bearing don't fail in that way like old two-piece bearings most mechanics are used to. Again, you are well past the outside of range of typical failure, and to be thorough, someone needs to really get down and dirty and check these.
Motor mounts are unlikely for the high-speed vibration, but can be checked easily. The 3es is much more robust in this regard than the 4es, so you have that going for you. Put a quarter on the engine cover and see how much it vibrates at idle. It shouldn't. Rev the engine and see how much it moves. It should move very little. A clear lurch on either main axis will be the giveaway.
Something else to consider - how is your mileage? Are you getting the stated MPGs you should expect (use the epa guidelines, for example), or less?
Motor mounts are unlikely for the high-speed vibration, but can be checked easily. The 3es is much more robust in this regard than the 4es, so you have that going for you. Put a quarter on the engine cover and see how much it vibrates at idle. It shouldn't. Rev the engine and see how much it moves. It should move very little. A clear lurch on either main axis will be the giveaway.
Something else to consider - how is your mileage? Are you getting the stated MPGs you should expect (use the epa guidelines, for example), or less?
2. I'll do the coin test, but I feel like my engine mounts are pretty good.
3. You know I haven't been paying much attention, because I've been driving locally since early 2018 and my MPGs dropped to low 20s, sometimes even high teens. I used to be in the mid 20's when it was mostly highway.
As of the last two weeks, I've been commuting a lot by highway (70% highway/30% city) and have recorded 22MPG within the last 2 fill ups. I've been tracking my fuel economy since 2012 on Fuelly.com, so it's a habit to record the gas mileage.
My biggest struggle is finding a place that can confirm that they feel a vibration I'm feeling, and also take the issue seriously enough to keep troubleshooting. I just want to find a mechanic who cares and is willing to look deeper into it.
For now, I'm gonna try looking into it a bit more on Saturday morning when I get some free time
Last edited by Hayk; 09-13-18 at 05:36 PM.
09-13-18, 06:59 PM
#21
3. You know I haven't been paying much attention, because I've been driving locally since early 2018 and my MPGs dropped to low 20s, sometimes even high teens. I used to be in the mid 20's when it was mostly highway.
As of the last two weeks, I've been commuting a lot by highway (70% highway/30% city) and have recorded 22MPG within the last 2 fill ups. I've been tracking my fuel economy since 2012 on Fuelly.com, so it's a habit to record the gas mileage
As of the last two weeks, I've been commuting a lot by highway (70% highway/30% city) and have recorded 22MPG within the last 2 fill ups. I've been tracking my fuel economy since 2012 on Fuelly.com, so it's a habit to record the gas mileage
I didn't originally ask exactly why I was curious about MPGs because I didn't want to bias your answer. I went through pretty much 100% what you did for about two years or maybe a little less trying to track down a subtle high speed vibration. After checking EVERYTHING out, multiple times, I finally decided the tiny vibration I felt in the coils and the very small movement I got in rocking the wheels was the bearings. I did the job and could not believe the difference, and my mpgs jumped back up, which I had not been tracking carefully for a while. It was honestly the mpg change that had me chasing the problem more than the vibration. It's not that I was manic for the added economy, but that I knew it was an indicator of a problem somewhere and I wanted to get ahead of it.
After I redid the bearings, I re-did the lower control arms and ball joints (shocks are relatively new ~ KYBs about four years ago) this year. The car rides and handles like new now, and that just blows my mind as it is closing in on 300k. None of these parts were expensive (though the lower control arms a little bit of a PITA, but not horrible), just my time and labor.
You can now buy hubs with the bearings already pressed in, though they aren't particularly cheap and the hub is not really a wear item, so to me it does not make it cost effective vs. pressing them yourself or having a shop do it, but it does make the job easier for the less ambitious or penny-pinching DIY'er. I worry a little bit about using them for another reason - I'm leery that the steering knuckle would be cast perfectly vs. the OE one, and your alignment would be thrown off with using them. So I'm in the position of getting a prophylactic alignment on top of the cost of the hub+bearing assembly, or I run the risk of finding out that's the case when I see my tires wearing badly and thus trashing 1/2 of the set.
My biggest struggle is finding a place that can confirm that they feel a vibration I'm feeling, and also take the issue seriously enough to keep troubleshooting. I just want to find a mechanic who cares and is willing to look deeper into it.
), this is why I do all my own work except tire balancing and alignment (and major body work) - up to and including transmission and engine rebuilding. No one will take your car as seriously as you will, or do as thorough a job on it as you will. Find a good independent Toyota/Japanese shop and take it to them and just tell them to do the job. OR, invest the hundreds of dollars you save in some tools and let the internet and forums walk you through it.
Last edited by Oro; 09-13-18 at 07:04 PM.
09-14-18, 04:54 AM
#22
Ok, that is a big red flag on bearings being the culprit. Our model gets a little better mileage vs yours, and in our case it slowly went from 25/26 mpgs in 70/30 driving, down to 22-ish. After the bearing job, which I was so slow to detect, it jumped right back up.
I didn't originally ask exactly why I was curious about MPGs because I didn't want to bias your answer. I went through pretty much 100% what you did for about two years or maybe a little less trying to track down a subtle high speed vibration. After checking EVERYTHING out, multiple times, I finally decided the tiny vibration I felt in the coils and the very small movement I got in rocking the wheels was the bearings. I did the job and could not believe the difference, and my mpgs jumped back up, which I had not been tracking carefully for a while. It was honestly the mpg change that had me chasing the problem more than the vibration. It's not that I was manic for the added economy, but that I knew it was an indicator of a problem somewhere and I wanted to get ahead of it.
After I redid the bearings, I re-did the lower control arms and ball joints (shocks are relatively new ~ KYBs about four years ago) this year. The car rides and handles like new now, and that just blows my mind as it is closing in on 300k. None of these parts were expensive (though the lower control arms a little bit of a PITA, but not horrible), just my time and labor.
You can now buy hubs with the bearings already pressed in, though they aren't particularly cheap and the hub is not really a wear item, so to me it does not make it cost effective vs. pressing them yourself or having a shop do it, but it does make the job easier for the less ambitious or penny-pinching DIY'er. I worry a little bit about using them for another reason - I'm leery that the steering knuckle would be cast perfectly vs. the OE one, and your alignment would be thrown off with using them. So I'm in the position of getting a prophylactic alignment on top of the cost of the hub+bearing assembly, or I run the risk of finding out that's the case when I see my tires wearing badly and thus trashing 1/2 of the set.
Besides enjoying it and finding it honestly therapeutic (I am a big fan of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, btw ), this is why I do all my own work except tire balancing and alignment (and major body work) - up to and including transmission and engine rebuilding. No one will take your car as seriously as you will, or do as thorough a job on it as you will. Find a good independent Toyota/Japanese shop and take it to them and just tell them to do the job. OR, invest the hundreds of dollars you save in some tools and let the internet and forums walk you through it.
I didn't originally ask exactly why I was curious about MPGs because I didn't want to bias your answer. I went through pretty much 100% what you did for about two years or maybe a little less trying to track down a subtle high speed vibration. After checking EVERYTHING out, multiple times, I finally decided the tiny vibration I felt in the coils and the very small movement I got in rocking the wheels was the bearings. I did the job and could not believe the difference, and my mpgs jumped back up, which I had not been tracking carefully for a while. It was honestly the mpg change that had me chasing the problem more than the vibration. It's not that I was manic for the added economy, but that I knew it was an indicator of a problem somewhere and I wanted to get ahead of it.
After I redid the bearings, I re-did the lower control arms and ball joints (shocks are relatively new ~ KYBs about four years ago) this year. The car rides and handles like new now, and that just blows my mind as it is closing in on 300k. None of these parts were expensive (though the lower control arms a little bit of a PITA, but not horrible), just my time and labor.
You can now buy hubs with the bearings already pressed in, though they aren't particularly cheap and the hub is not really a wear item, so to me it does not make it cost effective vs. pressing them yourself or having a shop do it, but it does make the job easier for the less ambitious or penny-pinching DIY'er. I worry a little bit about using them for another reason - I'm leery that the steering knuckle would be cast perfectly vs. the OE one, and your alignment would be thrown off with using them. So I'm in the position of getting a prophylactic alignment on top of the cost of the hub+bearing assembly, or I run the risk of finding out that's the case when I see my tires wearing badly and thus trashing 1/2 of the set.
Besides enjoying it and finding it honestly therapeutic (I am a big fan of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, btw
), this is why I do all my own work except tire balancing and alignment (and major body work) - up to and including transmission and engine rebuilding. No one will take your car as seriously as you will, or do as thorough a job on it as you will. Find a good independent Toyota/Japanese shop and take it to them and just tell them to do the job. OR, invest the hundreds of dollars you save in some tools and let the internet and forums walk you through it.just FYI: as a rule of thumb, 80% of tires are not dynamically imbalanced, and a good job on a bubble balancer like the $70 harbor freight one, Will create perfection To beyond highway mph. You will, however, never ever never Balance a dynamic imbalance with a bubble balancer.
My 4es tires are almost ready for replacement, and have been bubble Valinced most of the time with a perfectly smooth wheel at any speed
Give it a try
Last edited by acarapella; 09-14-18 at 04:57 AM.
09-14-18, 07:51 AM
#23
Ok, that is a big red flag on bearings being the culprit. Our model gets a little better mileage vs yours, and in our case it slowly went from 25/26 mpgs in 70/30 driving, down to 22-ish. After the bearing job, which I was so slow to detect, it jumped right back up.
I didn't originally ask exactly why I was curious about MPGs because I didn't want to bias your answer. I went through pretty much 100% what you did for about two years or maybe a little less trying to track down a subtle high speed vibration. After checking EVERYTHING out, multiple times, I finally decided the tiny vibration I felt in the coils and the very small movement I got in rocking the wheels was the bearings. I did the job and could not believe the difference, and my mpgs jumped back up, which I had not been tracking carefully for a while. It was honestly the mpg change that had me chasing the problem more than the vibration. It's not that I was manic for the added economy, but that I knew it was an indicator of a problem somewhere and I wanted to get ahead of it.
After I redid the bearings, I re-did the lower control arms and ball joints (shocks are relatively new ~ KYBs about four years ago) this year. The car rides and handles like new now, and that just blows my mind as it is closing in on 300k. None of these parts were expensive (though the lower control arms a little bit of a PITA, but not horrible), just my time and labor.
You can now buy hubs with the bearings already pressed in, though they aren't particularly cheap and the hub is not really a wear item, so to me it does not make it cost effective vs. pressing them yourself or having a shop do it, but it does make the job easier for the less ambitious or penny-pinching DIY'er. I worry a little bit about using them for another reason - I'm leery that the steering knuckle would be cast perfectly vs. the OE one, and your alignment would be thrown off with using them. So I'm in the position of getting a prophylactic alignment on top of the cost of the hub+bearing assembly, or I run the risk of finding out that's the case when I see my tires wearing badly and thus trashing 1/2 of the set.
Besides enjoying it and finding it honestly therapeutic (I am a big fan of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, btw ), this is why I do all my own work except tire balancing and alignment (and major body work) - up to and including transmission and engine rebuilding. No one will take your car as seriously as you will, or do as thorough a job on it as you will. Find a good independent Toyota/Japanese shop and take it to them and just tell them to do the job. OR, invest the hundreds of dollars you save in some tools and let the internet and forums walk you through it.
I didn't originally ask exactly why I was curious about MPGs because I didn't want to bias your answer. I went through pretty much 100% what you did for about two years or maybe a little less trying to track down a subtle high speed vibration. After checking EVERYTHING out, multiple times, I finally decided the tiny vibration I felt in the coils and the very small movement I got in rocking the wheels was the bearings. I did the job and could not believe the difference, and my mpgs jumped back up, which I had not been tracking carefully for a while. It was honestly the mpg change that had me chasing the problem more than the vibration. It's not that I was manic for the added economy, but that I knew it was an indicator of a problem somewhere and I wanted to get ahead of it.
After I redid the bearings, I re-did the lower control arms and ball joints (shocks are relatively new ~ KYBs about four years ago) this year. The car rides and handles like new now, and that just blows my mind as it is closing in on 300k. None of these parts were expensive (though the lower control arms a little bit of a PITA, but not horrible), just my time and labor.
You can now buy hubs with the bearings already pressed in, though they aren't particularly cheap and the hub is not really a wear item, so to me it does not make it cost effective vs. pressing them yourself or having a shop do it, but it does make the job easier for the less ambitious or penny-pinching DIY'er. I worry a little bit about using them for another reason - I'm leery that the steering knuckle would be cast perfectly vs. the OE one, and your alignment would be thrown off with using them. So I'm in the position of getting a prophylactic alignment on top of the cost of the hub+bearing assembly, or I run the risk of finding out that's the case when I see my tires wearing badly and thus trashing 1/2 of the set.
Besides enjoying it and finding it honestly therapeutic (I am a big fan of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, btw
), this is why I do all my own work except tire balancing and alignment (and major body work) - up to and including transmission and engine rebuilding. No one will take your car as seriously as you will, or do as thorough a job on it as you will. Find a good independent Toyota/Japanese shop and take it to them and just tell them to do the job. OR, invest the hundreds of dollars you save in some tools and let the internet and forums walk you through it.Is is there a brand of bearings that you recommend? I was thinking of Timken from RockAuto.
09-14-18, 08:47 AM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=494618
09-14-18, 12:00 PM
#25
Get this Beck/Arnley it is in fact a reboxed Koyo made in Japan.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=494618
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=494618
09-14-18, 02:01 PM
#26
09-14-18, 08:32 PM
#27
I raised the car up and spun the front wheels while holding onto the front coil springs. Tried wiggling the wheels at 9&3 o'clock, 12&6 o'clock, 8&2 o'clock, and 10&5 o'clock. Didn't feel any roughness nor play. Would you still recommend to replace the bearings?
09-14-18, 09:09 PM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
Carefully compare the front right to the front left. The front right almost always goes bad first (right lane is slopped) if you don't feel any difference in vibration/roughness when holding the coils the bearings are likely good. They are very robust on these cars most cases I've seen they don't develop play they simply get noisy. Have you ever had to replace a front ABS sensor? That is sometimes a clue that the bearing is getting hot which cooks the sensor.
09-14-18, 09:40 PM
#29
I understand your hesitation. Were it me and knowing what I know now, YES, I would still do them.
In my case, I do it myself and my father has a 12 ton press, so it only cost me time and $70 for new bearings. I was still somewhat unconvinced beforehand, but the difference was night and day. The symptoms and my experience are 100% as yours - no noise from them, no readily perceptible overt signs. Just high speed vibration (right down to the headrest shake you described), and a 10%-ish drop in mpgs. I kept blaming the tires and having them rebalanced, which would minimize the problem for a while, until it grew back. I could not explain the mpg drop and that bugged me - I blamed it on her lead foot (she is the daily driver, not me), but that wasn’t really enough and I knew something was off, but the engine is well maintained and I couldn’t find anything. 100% just like you in all details.
Another thing is that I haven’t ever seen a fwd car make it to a quarter milion miles without at least one worn out bearing. Because a lot more stress is on these bearings than in a rwd or awd car, they are built more robustly. Consequently, they aren’t as obnoxious when worn down.
So yes, my gut and experience say - even if you are paying a shop - do it. If doing it youself, I and others can walk you through it and there are some good youtube and other resources that make it easy to follow the steps.
In my case, I do it myself and my father has a 12 ton press, so it only cost me time and $70 for new bearings. I was still somewhat unconvinced beforehand, but the difference was night and day. The symptoms and my experience are 100% as yours - no noise from them, no readily perceptible overt signs. Just high speed vibration (right down to the headrest shake you described), and a 10%-ish drop in mpgs. I kept blaming the tires and having them rebalanced, which would minimize the problem for a while, until it grew back. I could not explain the mpg drop and that bugged me - I blamed it on her lead foot (she is the daily driver, not me), but that wasn’t really enough and I knew something was off, but the engine is well maintained and I couldn’t find anything. 100% just like you in all details.
Another thing is that I haven’t ever seen a fwd car make it to a quarter milion miles without at least one worn out bearing. Because a lot more stress is on these bearings than in a rwd or awd car, they are built more robustly. Consequently, they aren’t as obnoxious when worn down.
So yes, my gut and experience say - even if you are paying a shop - do it. If doing it youself, I and others can walk you through it and there are some good youtube and other resources that make it easy to follow the steps.
09-14-18, 09:50 PM
#30
Ok,couple other questions come to mind as I read the 1st post for the third time:
A) you had lower control arms replaced, but NOT the ball joints? Typically the new arms come with lower ball joints, or new ones are installed with them. Are tou sure about that?
B) if you rock the wheel holding 9/3 o’clock, you have Zero play? I cannot imagine that on original tie rods at 300k miles, especially on NJ roads and winters (I used to live in NYC and know the conditions).
A) you had lower control arms replaced, but NOT the ball joints? Typically the new arms come with lower ball joints, or new ones are installed with them. Are tou sure about that?
B) if you rock the wheel holding 9/3 o’clock, you have Zero play? I cannot imagine that on original tie rods at 300k miles, especially on NJ roads and winters (I used to live in NYC and know the conditions).