Vibration at high speed: driving me nuts!
10-03-18, 07:39 PM
#46
Runout on hubs would be what I would suggest now. You may find something bent in the right rear.
The only wheel balancing at this point worth pursuing is road force balancing if that has not been done.
The only wheel balancing at this point worth pursuing is road force balancing if that has not been done.
10-05-18, 01:54 PM
#47
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Have you checked out the catalytic converter? I have an 04 ES330. It starts to shake at 60-80 when my catalytic converter needs cleaning and the light comes on. I use some cat clean and it stops for awhile.
I also get lower fuel mileage when it happens.
I also get lower fuel mileage when it happens.
10-06-18, 04:17 PM
#48
While working on the driver side hub, I noticed some dried up coolant above the thermostat housing. Will need to investigate that further.
10-08-18, 07:17 AM
#49
Update post wheel bearing replacement:
1. Front left bearing is bad. It has been making noise since day one of the installation. Disassembled everything last night and confirmed that it’s the bearing. The inner circle of the bearing is lop sided and is binding up. I suspect that it was pressed in unevenly and was damaged during the process.
2. Noticed transmission fluid all over the underside of my car from the front left fog light to the drivers door. Turns out one of the transmission cooler hoses has gotten too old and simply started to leak past the clamp. Replaced the clamps with a worm gear type but it’s still letting the fluid through. Need a new hose.
3.While checking for leaks, noticed a lot of smoke from the exhaust. Revved the engine and observed a cloud of white smoke come out. Checked all fluids, did not see anything low or abnormal. Coolant overflow is halfway between low and high. Need to observe further to see if it’s burning any fluids. This was just water vapor.
4. Swapped out the original CV axle with my 2nd new unit from Cardone Select. This will be my last test to see if it alters the vibration at all.
1. Front left bearing is bad. It has been making noise since day one of the installation. Disassembled everything last night and confirmed that it’s the bearing. The inner circle of the bearing is lop sided and is binding up. I suspect that it was pressed in unevenly and was damaged during the process.
2. Noticed transmission fluid all over the underside of my car from the front left fog light to the drivers door. Turns out one of the transmission cooler hoses has gotten too old and simply started to leak past the clamp. Replaced the clamps with a worm gear type but it’s still letting the fluid through. Need a new hose.
3.
4. Swapped out the original CV axle with my 2nd new unit from Cardone Select. This will be my last test to see if it alters the vibration at all.
Last edited by Hayk; 11-24-18 at 12:18 PM.
10-08-18, 10:47 AM
#50
It sounds like the bearing was pressed in by a machine operator, not a "machinist." They must have used the face of the press directly on the bearing, which is incredibly bad practice. Pressing these in and out is not super-easy; I mangled one of my aluminum bearing drivers in the process. A wood drift or aluminum driver would have prevented that damage to your bearing. I would be pretty displeased at that if you paid someone to do it.
The other possibility is they did not press it in all the way to the lip - one of mine did that, too. Then when it was torqued with the nut, the inner race was pulled into position but not the upper. Either way, this was something a qualified machinist would not have missed.
When you replace the cooler line, try to get a Mubea-style constant tension clamp (like what was on there OE). They provide better all-around clamping and less leaking. The worm-gear type are the worst in that regard. Ace Hardware has a good selection of them cheaply (at least the larger ones around here do).
IF you are going to replaced the hose, it's also a good time to install a Magnefine in-line filter in it. Pretty cheap and good insurance. Like this (Raybestos is the same thing):
The other possibility is they did not press it in all the way to the lip - one of mine did that, too. Then when it was torqued with the nut, the inner race was pulled into position but not the upper. Either way, this was something a qualified machinist would not have missed.
When you replace the cooler line, try to get a Mubea-style constant tension clamp (like what was on there OE). They provide better all-around clamping and less leaking. The worm-gear type are the worst in that regard. Ace Hardware has a good selection of them cheaply (at least the larger ones around here do).
IF you are going to replaced the hose, it's also a good time to install a Magnefine in-line filter in it. Pretty cheap and good insurance. Like this (Raybestos is the same thing):
10-08-18, 11:23 PM
#51
It sounds like the bearing was pressed in by a machine operator, not a "machinist." They must have used the face of the press directly on the bearing, which is incredibly bad practice. Pressing these in and out is not super-easy; I mangled one of my aluminum bearing drivers in the process. A wood drift or aluminum driver would have prevented that damage to your bearing. I would be pretty displeased at that if you paid someone to do it.
The other possibility is they did not press it in all the way to the lip - one of mine did that, too. Then when it was torqued with the nut, the inner race was pulled into position but not the upper. Either way, this was something a qualified machinist would not have missed.
When you replace the cooler line, try to get a Mubea-style constant tension clamp (like what was on there OE). They provide better all-around clamping and less leaking. The worm-gear type are the worst in that regard. Ace Hardware has a good selection of them cheaply (at least the larger ones around here do).
IF you are going to replaced the hose, it's also a good time to install a Magnefine in-line filter in it. Pretty cheap and good insurance. Like this (Raybestos is the same thing):
https://www.amazon.com/Raybestos-Pow.../dp/B0065LZA94
The other possibility is they did not press it in all the way to the lip - one of mine did that, too. Then when it was torqued with the nut, the inner race was pulled into position but not the upper. Either way, this was something a qualified machinist would not have missed.
When you replace the cooler line, try to get a Mubea-style constant tension clamp (like what was on there OE). They provide better all-around clamping and less leaking. The worm-gear type are the worst in that regard. Ace Hardware has a good selection of them cheaply (at least the larger ones around here do).
IF you are going to replaced the hose, it's also a good time to install a Magnefine in-line filter in it. Pretty cheap and good insurance. Like this (Raybestos is the same thing):
https://www.amazon.com/Raybestos-Pow.../dp/B0065LZA94
I will be coming back with a new bearing to get them to fix it and make sure they do it right. Thank you for the heads up on the pressing method. Your theory about the inner race being pulled in by the nut sounds very plausible. I torqued that sucker with a long pipe from my jack, so it's very possibly it moved the bearing during reassembly.
2. Replaced the hose but couldn't get a hold of the spring type fittings at the store, kept the worm gear ones for now. I know they suck as they don't continue to squeeze the hose over time, but it's the best I have for the time being. The original ones rotted out, so I gotta wait to get new ones. I had no idea Ace carries car stuff, gotta see if there's one by me.
3. Turns out the hose isn't the problem, it's the metal fitting on the radiator. There must be some corrosion that's letting the fluid through the fitting. I'm gonna try mending it with some Epoxy, otherwise I gotta install a whole new radiator and this one is only 2 years old from Denso!
This is the fitting in question. I believe the nut is around 20-22mm in size (don't have a wrench for it). There is an aluminum tube that goes through the middle of it and connects to the hose. The leak is in between the aluminum tube and steel nut.
Photo was taken before replacing the hose.
Last edited by Hayk; 10-08-18 at 11:29 PM.
10-09-18, 03:16 PM
#52
Ace has a lot of useful auto hardware in their grey parts drawers. Body fasteners/clips, hose clamps, and of course bolts/screws/nuts. Tools section has taps and dies, etc. way more helpful than my local O’Reilly or NAPA in that regard, and cheaper.
I am not sure about the fitting; the epoxy will likely not adhere to the corrosion, or if so, not for long. I would remove and replace it. Finding the fitting may take a little hunting. Maybe try the epoxy, or a really good pu sealant like 3M 5200, and then consider that temporary while you hunt the fitting.
I had a crack in the inlet hose on my radiator a year ago. I was going to repair it, and then discovered a new Denso OE radiator was $50 delivered from Amazon Warehouse. So I put in a new hd (1” core) radiator instead of repairing. The stock one was 5/8”, they came both ways for some reason.
I am not sure about the fitting; the epoxy will likely not adhere to the corrosion, or if so, not for long. I would remove and replace it. Finding the fitting may take a little hunting. Maybe try the epoxy, or a really good pu sealant like 3M 5200, and then consider that temporary while you hunt the fitting.
I had a crack in the inlet hose on my radiator a year ago. I was going to repair it, and then discovered a new Denso OE radiator was $50 delivered from Amazon Warehouse. So I put in a new hd (1” core) radiator instead of repairing. The stock one was 5/8”, they came both ways for some reason.
10-10-18, 06:24 PM
#53
Ace has a lot of useful auto hardware in their grey parts drawers. Body fasteners/clips, hose clamps, and of course bolts/screws/nuts. Tools section has taps and dies, etc. way more helpful than my local O’Reilly or NAPA in that regard, and cheaper.
I am not sure about the fitting; the epoxy will likely not adhere to the corrosion, or if so, not for long. I would remove and replace it. Finding the fitting may take a little hunting. Maybe try the epoxy, or a really good pu sealant like 3M 5200, and then consider that temporary while you hunt the fitting.
I had a crack in the inlet hose on my radiator a year ago. I was going to repair it, and then discovered a new Denso OE radiator was $50 delivered from Amazon Warehouse. So I put in a new hd (1” core) radiator instead of repairing. The stock one was 5/8”, they came both ways for some reason.
I am not sure about the fitting; the epoxy will likely not adhere to the corrosion, or if so, not for long. I would remove and replace it. Finding the fitting may take a little hunting. Maybe try the epoxy, or a really good pu sealant like 3M 5200, and then consider that temporary while you hunt the fitting.
I had a crack in the inlet hose on my radiator a year ago. I was going to repair it, and then discovered a new Denso OE radiator was $50 delivered from Amazon Warehouse. So I put in a new hd (1” core) radiator instead of repairing. The stock one was 5/8”, they came both ways for some reason.
I think I'm gonna bite the bullet and just get a new radiator as I already snapped the other aluminum line while messing with the hoses.
I'm gonna coat everything in Fluid Film to hopefully prolong the life of the new replacement.
My theory is that because I didn't have my hose all the way against the steel nut of that fitting, corrosion started building up on the 1/4" gap and found its way into the steel nut. Now it probably has a wider clearance and is letting fluid to go through.
10-15-18, 11:00 AM
#54
It sounds like the bearing was pressed in by a machine operator, not a "machinist." They must have used the face of the press directly on the bearing, which is incredibly bad practice. Pressing these in and out is not super-easy; I mangled one of my aluminum bearing drivers in the process. A wood drift or aluminum driver would have prevented that damage to your bearing. I would be pretty displeased at that if you paid someone to do it.
The other possibility is they did not press it in all the way to the lip - one of mine did that, too. Then when it was torqued with the nut, the inner race was pulled into position but not the upper. Either way, this was something a qualified machinist would not have missed.
When you replace the cooler line, try to get a Mubea-style constant tension clamp (like what was on there OE). They provide better all-around clamping and less leaking. The worm-gear type are the worst in that regard. Ace Hardware has a good selection of them cheaply (at least the larger ones around here do).
IF you are going to replaced the hose, it's also a good time to install a Magnefine in-line filter in it. Pretty cheap and good insurance. Like this (Raybestos is the same thing):
https://www.amazon.com/Raybestos-Pow.../dp/B0065LZA94
The other possibility is they did not press it in all the way to the lip - one of mine did that, too. Then when it was torqued with the nut, the inner race was pulled into position but not the upper. Either way, this was something a qualified machinist would not have missed.
When you replace the cooler line, try to get a Mubea-style constant tension clamp (like what was on there OE). They provide better all-around clamping and less leaking. The worm-gear type are the worst in that regard. Ace Hardware has a good selection of them cheaply (at least the larger ones around here do).
IF you are going to replaced the hose, it's also a good time to install a Magnefine in-line filter in it. Pretty cheap and good insurance. Like this (Raybestos is the same thing):
https://www.amazon.com/Raybestos-Pow.../dp/B0065LZA94
This is incredibly disappointing and why I am terrified to let my car into the "professionals" care for even a NY inspection or alignment. This doesn't take particular skill or education as much as it takes care. If you aren't on the clock and you are working on your car you love, a couple extra hours can be spent studying what you are doing. Perhaps you may take your professional mechanic budget and re-aim it at tools. I got a 12 ton press (WISH I got 20 ton) for this project, more or less... I've used it WAY more than I thought. That said, I am no one special, but I did this job right the first time (although I *may* have bent my hub a tiny bit... for $12 I should have just replaced it, I think it was already like that). I've done a hand full since.
Keep at this - dont give up, and PLEASE post your final findings
10-16-18, 08:37 PM
#55
So I did a lot of maintenance and repairs over the past two days. Vibration is still there but here is where we are:
1. Swapped out the radiator to fix the transmission leak (cheaper and safer than patching the broken pipes)
2. Put in a new driver side bearing (as mentioned previously)
3. Changed the fuel filter (due for service)
4. Cleaned the IACV and Throttle Body (I was already there, and it was overdue)
5. Cleaned the MAF Sensor (on the way to the fuel filter)
6. Bled the brakes (dark fluid and spongy brakes)*
*When I first got the car, I remember noticing how dark the fluid was. Over the years, I've noticed that it becomes brown and a little green shortly after bleeding it (within a few months). At this point, all four calipers have been replaced, so I imagine there is some corrosion inside the braking system that's contaminating the fluid very quickly.
Good news: the wheel bearing noise is gone, the leak has stopped, and the brakes feel more responsive.
Bad news: I think I misdiagnosed the whirring sound of the wheel bearing. After I put everything together, I ran the car in Drive on jack stands and the whirring sound was still there. Since I had my hood open I could hear it from the top. I looked around and figured that the sound was coming from the transaxle where the driver side CV goes in. Sure enough, I added half a quart of fluid and the noise went away. What surprised me is that this noise started right after the last Wheel Bearing job when I also swapped out the driver side CV Axle. At the time of the CV axle swap, I didn't lose that much transmission fluid, so I didn't even think about it. Then when the radiator leak began, I measured my fluid a few times and it was always at the top Hot mark whenever I drove the car around and ran through the gear. I guess with all of this happening at once, I must have lost just enough fluid for the transmission to start making starvation noises. Who knows if that bearing was truly bad, but the fluid definitely made everything go away except for the vibration :\
Next up:
1. Wheel Alignment
2. Wheel Balance check
3. Rotors/Hub runout measurements
4. Prep the car for winter (touch up, wash, wax, Fluid Film)
1. Swapped out the radiator to fix the transmission leak (cheaper and safer than patching the broken pipes)
2. Put in a new driver side bearing (as mentioned previously)
3. Changed the fuel filter (due for service)
4. Cleaned the IACV and Throttle Body (I was already there, and it was overdue)
5. Cleaned the MAF Sensor (on the way to the fuel filter)
6. Bled the brakes (dark fluid and spongy brakes)*
*When I first got the car, I remember noticing how dark the fluid was. Over the years, I've noticed that it becomes brown and a little green shortly after bleeding it (within a few months). At this point, all four calipers have been replaced, so I imagine there is some corrosion inside the braking system that's contaminating the fluid very quickly.
Good news: the wheel bearing noise is gone, the leak has stopped, and the brakes feel more responsive.
Bad news: I think I misdiagnosed the whirring sound of the wheel bearing. After I put everything together, I ran the car in Drive on jack stands and the whirring sound was still there. Since I had my hood open I could hear it from the top. I looked around and figured that the sound was coming from the transaxle where the driver side CV goes in. Sure enough, I added half a quart of fluid and the noise went away. What surprised me is that this noise started right after the last Wheel Bearing job when I also swapped out the driver side CV Axle. At the time of the CV axle swap, I didn't lose that much transmission fluid, so I didn't even think about it. Then when the radiator leak began, I measured my fluid a few times and it was always at the top Hot mark whenever I drove the car around and ran through the gear. I guess with all of this happening at once, I must have lost just enough fluid for the transmission to start making starvation noises. Who knows if that bearing was truly bad, but the fluid definitely made everything go away except for the vibration :\
Next up:
1. Wheel Alignment
2. Wheel Balance check
3. Rotors/Hub runout measurements
4. Prep the car for winter (touch up, wash, wax, Fluid Film)
Last edited by Hayk; 10-16-18 at 08:48 PM.
10-22-18, 05:07 AM
#56
Out of curiosity, how did you bleed the brakes? On old cars I just open the bleeders until fluid starts coming out... “gravity bleeding” and it works great. I’ve imagined sucking out and replacing what’s in the reservoir with new and doing the aforementioned until new, clear fluid comes out at all four corners
10-23-18, 07:48 PM
#57
Out of curiosity, how did you bleed the brakes? On old cars I just open the bleeders until fluid starts coming out... “gravity bleeding” and it works great. I’ve imagined sucking out and replacing what’s in the reservoir with new and doing the aforementioned until new, clear fluid comes out at all four corners
I recently bought a specialty bottle for this exact job and it makes it that much easier to do yourself.
Allstar Performance ALL11017 Bleeder Bottle with Magnet and Check Valve https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F9XHVKA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_N09ZBbREGBWEV
10-29-18, 08:53 PM
#59
I tried a vacuum bleeder in the past, but couldn't find the right adapter. Bought one from Motiv with an Asian adapter for the master cylinder, but it didn't work so I ended up selling it.
Quick update: I have an appointment in the morning for a Wheel Alignment, Wheel Balance Check, and Rotor Runout Measurement. I think I'm starting to feel a braking pulsation and the brakes are only a few months old. So I'm hoping we find something during the rotor measurement.
Last edited by Hayk; 10-29-18 at 08:56 PM.
10-30-18, 09:38 AM
#60
Update: it’s a possible internal problem with the differential/transmission.
1. Wheels got rebalanced
2. Alignment completed
3. Runout Measurement: The shop was not capable of doing a measurement, said only one person knows how and he was too busy. Asked another shop and they said they don’t do it at all. Third shop suggested it wouldn’t be related to my problem.
After getting the alignment and balance, I drove it on the highway and the vibration is still there, maybe even more pronounced now because I was extra observant. From 50-80mph.
Brought the car to a Subaru tuner shop that has a dynomameter. Their technician test drove the car and inspected everything. He was stumped and expressed that they can’t troubleshoot any further with they equipment. It’s not something they can figure out st their shop. They didn’t have a tire/wheel machine so he couldn’t check the balance. However he did say it could be something as simple a bad wheel balance (unlikely at this point) and recommended trying a Road Force machine or as complex as an internal differential problem. He said either way the transmission will need to be removed, because you can’t test any internal issues on the car.
Sooo... it looks like I will be driving the car over the winter with this problem. Time to start thinking about replacement options.
I’m thinking:
1. used transmission
2. another used ES without this problem, then swap my good stuff over to it
3. Find another car
1. Wheels got rebalanced
2. Alignment completed
3. Runout Measurement: The shop was not capable of doing a measurement, said only one person knows how and he was too busy. Asked another shop and they said they don’t do it at all. Third shop suggested it wouldn’t be related to my problem.
After getting the alignment and balance, I drove it on the highway and the vibration is still there, maybe even more pronounced now because I was extra observant. From 50-80mph.
Brought the car to a Subaru tuner shop that has a dynomameter. Their technician test drove the car and inspected everything. He was stumped and expressed that they can’t troubleshoot any further with they equipment. It’s not something they can figure out st their shop. They didn’t have a tire/wheel machine so he couldn’t check the balance. However he did say it could be something as simple a bad wheel balance (unlikely at this point) and recommended trying a Road Force machine or as complex as an internal differential problem. He said either way the transmission will need to be removed, because you can’t test any internal issues on the car.
Sooo... it looks like I will be driving the car over the winter with this problem. Time to start thinking about replacement options.
I’m thinking:
1. used transmission
2. another used ES without this problem, then swap my good stuff over to it
3. Find another car
Last edited by Hayk; 10-30-18 at 09:42 AM.