1MZ-FE occasional misfire only when idle for long.
#1
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Hello Everyone, I own a 2001 Avalon along with an 06 GS430, my question is about my Avalon, since there is no traffic on the Toyota forum, and the ES shared the same drive-train as the Avalon, I will ask it here, I bought my 2001 Avalon for a steal because of misfire in Feb with 160k miles, it runs like a top and is in very good shape. I fixed the misfire by changing the all the plugs with NGK Platinum and also the coil for cylinder 2 and that fixed the misfire. But when I sat at a red light for more than 25-30 seconds, the CEL would blink and one I start driving it stops as the misfire goes away. My mechanic said I have a compression problem in Cylinder 2, but here is the thing... My car burns ZERO oil and doesn't smoke so I don't think that there is an issue with rings. Now I keep the misfire away by raising the idle from 750-900rpm and there would be NO misfire at idle. The injector are good according to my mechanic as there are no lean codes. A possibility is that the valves and rings could be stuck or there must be carbon buildup from the past, I plan on dumping Marvel Mystery oil in my oil and gas tank and drive it hard. Do you all really think with my symptoms, I have worn piston rings and would have to live with the low idle misfire for life or could this be sludge buildup from past giving lower compression in cylinder 2? The oil cap does looked caked up with some gunk. He said all Cylinders are around 170 and Cyl 2 is around 150. Please advice.
Last edited by cdvyas; 10-27-18 at 04:46 PM.
#2
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Has a compression test been done by you or just the mechanic? You need to look at live data instead of only relying on fault codes, also it would be a good idea to pull the front valve cover to check for sludge.
#3
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Ps I got inspired to use engine cleaner from this thread, except his issue was with burning oil whereas mine is with low idle misfire, compression situation is similar in both cases.
Last edited by cdvyas; 10-27-18 at 05:13 PM.
#4
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The first, easy thing to do is to swap the plug and coil to different cylinders and see if the DTC tracks with the ignition components or stays with the cylinder. For example, if the code is with cylinder 4, move the plug to cylinder 2 and the coil to cylinder 6, and see what happens.
It is normal for the oil fill hole to have coke on it because of the anti-splash baffle built into the cover. You really can’t judge anything by that. Sludge is a real issue, but only from serious neglect, and unlikely to cause this particular dtc. Let’s set that issue aside for now, but come back to it later if it really worries you. FYI, instead of mmo in the gas, go to walmart and get two bottles of Gumout Regane High Mileage, the 6oz bottles ~$5 each. Run them in sequential tanks of fuel. Mmo will act as an upper cylinder lube temporarily, but not be diagnostically usefull here.
if you have a smartphone and $5, you can get live data as L2k said. It is not hard. What is the exact CEL you are getting? What oil is actually in it, how many miles on it, and how confident are you really in the po’s maintenance regime? 160k on a 2001 Avalon implies the sparrk plug seals could be leaking likes sieves, even if not showing measurably on the dipstick, compounding a plug or coil problem.
Sorry to hear the Toyota forum was not helpfull. I used to be a mod there years ago, And specifically for the Avalon sub-forum to which you would be referring. But the admin got extremely - weirdly and offensively- political and I and others left. It is sad to hear that or other things has led to such a drop in usability.
It is normal for the oil fill hole to have coke on it because of the anti-splash baffle built into the cover. You really can’t judge anything by that. Sludge is a real issue, but only from serious neglect, and unlikely to cause this particular dtc. Let’s set that issue aside for now, but come back to it later if it really worries you. FYI, instead of mmo in the gas, go to walmart and get two bottles of Gumout Regane High Mileage, the 6oz bottles ~$5 each. Run them in sequential tanks of fuel. Mmo will act as an upper cylinder lube temporarily, but not be diagnostically usefull here.
if you have a smartphone and $5, you can get live data as L2k said. It is not hard. What is the exact CEL you are getting? What oil is actually in it, how many miles on it, and how confident are you really in the po’s maintenance regime? 160k on a 2001 Avalon implies the sparrk plug seals could be leaking likes sieves, even if not showing measurably on the dipstick, compounding a plug or coil problem.
Sorry to hear the Toyota forum was not helpfull. I used to be a mod there years ago, And specifically for the Avalon sub-forum to which you would be referring. But the admin got extremely - weirdly and offensively- political and I and others left. It is sad to hear that or other things has led to such a drop in usability.
Last edited by Oro; 10-28-18 at 07:01 AM.
#5
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The first, easy thing to do is to swap the plug and coil to different cylinders and see if the DTC tracks with the ignition components or stays with the cylinder. For example, if the code is with cylinder 4, move the plug to cylinder 2 and the coil to cylinder 6, and see what happens.
It is normal for the oil fill hole to have coke on it because of the anti-splash baffle built into the cover. You really can’t judge anything by that. Sludge is a real issue, but only from serious neglect, and unlikely to cause this particular dtc. Let’s set that issue aside for now, but come back to it later if it really worries you. FYI, instead of mmo in the gas, go to walmart and get two bottles of Gumout Regane High Mileage, the 6oz bottles ~$5 each. Run them in sequential tanks of fuel. Mmo will act as an upper cylinder lube temporarily, but not be diagnostically usefull here.
if you have a smartphone and $5, you can get live data as L2k said. It is not hard. What is the exact CEL you are getting? What oil is actually in it, how many miles on it, and how confident are you really in the po’s maintenance regime? 160k on a 2001 Avalon implies the sparrk plug seals could be leaking likes sieves, even if not showing measurably on the dipstick, compounding a plug or coil problem.
Sorry to hear the Toyota forum was not helpfull. I used to be a mod there years ago, And specifically for the Avalon sub-forum to which you would be referring. But the admin got extremely - weirdly and offensively- political and I and others left. It is sad to hear that or other things has led to such a drop in usability.
It is normal for the oil fill hole to have coke on it because of the anti-splash baffle built into the cover. You really can’t judge anything by that. Sludge is a real issue, but only from serious neglect, and unlikely to cause this particular dtc. Let’s set that issue aside for now, but come back to it later if it really worries you. FYI, instead of mmo in the gas, go to walmart and get two bottles of Gumout Regane High Mileage, the 6oz bottles ~$5 each. Run them in sequential tanks of fuel. Mmo will act as an upper cylinder lube temporarily, but not be diagnostically usefull here.
if you have a smartphone and $5, you can get live data as L2k said. It is not hard. What is the exact CEL you are getting? What oil is actually in it, how many miles on it, and how confident are you really in the po’s maintenance regime? 160k on a 2001 Avalon implies the sparrk plug seals could be leaking likes sieves, even if not showing measurably on the dipstick, compounding a plug or coil problem.
Sorry to hear the Toyota forum was not helpfull. I used to be a mod there years ago, And specifically for the Avalon sub-forum to which you would be referring. But the admin got extremely - weirdly and offensively- political and I and others left. It is sad to hear that or other things has led to such a drop in usability.
Last edited by cdvyas; 10-28-18 at 12:17 PM.
#6
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Low mileage usually means short trips this type of driving is much more likely to cause sludge. On your code if it is caused by a compression problem then obviously no amount of hitting the car with a parts cannon is going to help. Without a leak down test being done you don't know if the compression loss is a piston/ring issue or valves, internal engine issues on the 1MZ are rare outside of the infamous sludging. I would pull the valve cover before dumping in any cleaners if the engine is a sludge monster then cleaners can clog the oil pick up screen and it will be goodbye engine.
#7
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Low mileage usually means short trips this type of driving is much more likely to cause sludge. On your code if it is caused by a compression problem then obviously no amount of hitting the car with a parts cannon is going to help. Without a leak down test being done you don't know if the compression loss is a piston/ring issue or valves, internal engine issues on the 1MZ are rare outside of the infamous sludging. I would pull the valve cover before dumping in any cleaners if the engine is a sludge monster then cleaners can clog the oil pick up screen and it will be goodbye engine.
Last edited by cdvyas; 10-28-18 at 04:01 PM.
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#9
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A ring seized in the piston ring groove will cause the ring to wear out on one side because the ring can't float/self center. I don't know if you believe your mechanic or not first you said:
Then you said:
Do you believe your mechanic correctly diagnosed or not? Either way I've given you advice but you are ignoring it so do what you want.
My car burns ZERO oil and doesn't smoke so I don't think that there is an issue with rings.
He said that valves are not the problem, it is the rings in that piston... Question is are they stuck or worn?
#10
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I had already swapped coils and all the plugs are new on it,
Sludge is a problem to take seriously, but I just don't see it causing this problem. One of the biggest things that changes when going from 600 to 900 rpm is available current from the alternator. This can overcome a fault in a plug. This must be definitely ruled out before chasing other possible causes.
I am with L2K that it is very unusual to have an internal engine problem like rings, so I'd want to double or triple check that diagnosis. I would also find it unlikely that you have a serious ring issue and zero oil use and normal looking oil - there should be signs.
#11
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@Lexus2000 , you guessed it, that day my mechanic was in a rush and worked on my car in rush, so I DON'T trust him, he got jealous to begin with because I got such deal on the car. He was just like "It has a bad engine and you just have to live with the misfire/CEL for life." Which I don't think is the case, also he recently quit so I can't even go back and make him re-diagnose and most other mechanics around me are crooks. I am kind of on my own other than you guys trying to help me here, which I really appreciate. Also I am considering all of your advises on here. Sorry that you felt I was ignoring your advice. I just don't trust my mechanic's opinion to begin with so I myself don't know that the real issue is here, but I do know that isn't non-fixable and major.
@Oro I was initially guessing that the Cyl 2 wiring harness plug might be bad that causes misfire at low idle. Yes, it misfired at idle even with the old set. Alternator too was changed by PO with OEM Denso unit.
To summarize, I do believe there is slight compression issue as I listened to other 1MZ crank and mine doesn't crank on constant note, when I crank, there is a slight change in note in the way it cranks which tells one that there is a compression issue. But I am assuming that it is fixable as there are no major compression issues like oil burning, smoke or loss of power.
@Oro I was initially guessing that the Cyl 2 wiring harness plug might be bad that causes misfire at low idle. Yes, it misfired at idle even with the old set. Alternator too was changed by PO with OEM Denso unit.
To summarize, I do believe there is slight compression issue as I listened to other 1MZ crank and mine doesn't crank on constant note, when I crank, there is a slight change in note in the way it cranks which tells one that there is a compression issue. But I am assuming that it is fixable as there are no major compression issues like oil burning, smoke or loss of power.
Last edited by cdvyas; 10-28-18 at 06:33 PM.
#12
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OK, if you are confident that it's not ignition related, then it's time to do a compression test. You can borrow a gauge for free from most auto parts stores if you don't have one. Since it's a front bank cylinder you're in luck; it's not so difficult.
Use a flashlight and look at the piston tops to see what they look like (lots of carbon or such), examine the end of the plug to "read" it. Also, you do need to poke a light around the oil fill baffle and check for sludge/deposits. Note if there is oil in the spark plug well before you remove the plug. It can cause these problems if a seal is leaking. If compression is off, you can repeat a leak-down test to ID which is the source. There are some chemical ways to free rings; I have had some success with that over the years. I have another vehicle very problematic about this so have tried a number of things.
Use a flashlight and look at the piston tops to see what they look like (lots of carbon or such), examine the end of the plug to "read" it. Also, you do need to poke a light around the oil fill baffle and check for sludge/deposits. Note if there is oil in the spark plug well before you remove the plug. It can cause these problems if a seal is leaking. If compression is off, you can repeat a leak-down test to ID which is the source. There are some chemical ways to free rings; I have had some success with that over the years. I have another vehicle very problematic about this so have tried a number of things.
#13
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OK, if you are confident that it's not ignition related, then it's time to do a compression test. You can borrow a gauge for free from most auto parts stores if you don't have one. Since it's a front bank cylinder you're in luck; it's not so difficult.
Use a flashlight and look at the piston tops to see what they look like (lots of carbon or such), examine the end of the plug to "read" it. Also, you do need to poke a light around the oil fill baffle and check for sludge/deposits. Note if there is oil in the spark plug well before you remove the plug. It can cause these problems if a seal is leaking. If compression is off, you can repeat a leak-down test to ID which is the source. There are some chemical ways to free rings; I have had some success with that over the years. I have another vehicle very problematic about this so have tried a number of things.
Use a flashlight and look at the piston tops to see what they look like (lots of carbon or such), examine the end of the plug to "read" it. Also, you do need to poke a light around the oil fill baffle and check for sludge/deposits. Note if there is oil in the spark plug well before you remove the plug. It can cause these problems if a seal is leaking. If compression is off, you can repeat a leak-down test to ID which is the source. There are some chemical ways to free rings; I have had some success with that over the years. I have another vehicle very problematic about this so have tried a number of things.
Ps listen to my engine after cold start idling at first at 1500 rpm, then the noise is louder at 0:21-0:30 time in recording at 1200 rpm, is this noise normal or is this lifer/valve noise? If not normal than could be source of the misfire with buildup on the valves/lifter... let me know what you think.
Last edited by cdvyas; 10-29-18 at 11:12 PM.
#14
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You need to pull a fuse for the ignition to cut off spark to all cylinders. It will fire on five and then run unevenly. I can't recall where it is off hand, but check the fuse box map for both the engine box and the dash fuses (there are more fuses behind the little storage tray to the left of the wheel on the ES; it pops out with slight pressure).
If your goal is to loosen a ring, MMO poured strait down the spark plug hole and left to sit overnight is the better move. Adding it to gas or oil is not going to do a lot. Then you turn over the car to blow the residual MMO in the cylinder out before re-starting. This has occasional success, not a great record. A lengthy engine flush with kerosene in the oil is more effective IME. This is a safe and sound procedure, Mercedes use to use it as a dealer maintenance technique for diesels with carbon problems (as well as many other sources). Putting some Gumout Regane HM or Techron in the fuel is MUCH more effective for cleaning than MMO. You need to look into the valve covers to check for sludge before running a flush, for the reasons L2K outlined above.
I do hear the sound difference you are pointing out. I can't say what it is because of w/o being able to move around the engine and isolate it and listen to components. The first thing that comes to mind is Oil Control Valves, actually, or it could be a misfire but you should have a CEL if that is going on at that RPM. It sounds like the timing is not where it should be (one possibility); I would want to check the oil change history on this car and look under the valve covers before I did anything to it.
If your goal is to loosen a ring, MMO poured strait down the spark plug hole and left to sit overnight is the better move. Adding it to gas or oil is not going to do a lot. Then you turn over the car to blow the residual MMO in the cylinder out before re-starting. This has occasional success, not a great record. A lengthy engine flush with kerosene in the oil is more effective IME. This is a safe and sound procedure, Mercedes use to use it as a dealer maintenance technique for diesels with carbon problems (as well as many other sources). Putting some Gumout Regane HM or Techron in the fuel is MUCH more effective for cleaning than MMO. You need to look into the valve covers to check for sludge before running a flush, for the reasons L2K outlined above.
I do hear the sound difference you are pointing out. I can't say what it is because of w/o being able to move around the engine and isolate it and listen to components. The first thing that comes to mind is Oil Control Valves, actually, or it could be a misfire but you should have a CEL if that is going on at that RPM. It sounds like the timing is not where it should be (one possibility); I would want to check the oil change history on this car and look under the valve covers before I did anything to it.
#15
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You need to pull a fuse for the ignition to cut off spark to all cylinders. It will fire on five and then run unevenly. I can't recall where it is off hand, but check the fuse box map for both the engine box and the dash fuses (there are more fuses behind the little storage tray to the left of the wheel on the ES; it pops out with slight pressure).
If your goal is to loosen a ring, MMO poured strait down the spark plug hole and left to sit overnight is the better move. Adding it to gas or oil is not going to do a lot. Then you turn over the car to blow the residual MMO in the cylinder out before re-starting. This has occasional success, not a great record. A lengthy engine flush with kerosene in the oil is more effective IME. This is a safe and sound procedure, Mercedes use to use it as a dealer maintenance technique for diesels with carbon problems (as well as many other sources). Putting some Gumout Regane HM or Techron in the fuel is MUCH more effective for cleaning than MMO. You need to look into the valve covers to check for sludge before running a flush, for the reasons L2K outlined above.
I do hear the sound difference you are pointing out. I can't say what it is because of w/o being able to move around the engine and isolate it and listen to components. The first thing that comes to mind is Oil Control Valves, actually, or it could be a misfire but you should have a CEL if that is going on at that RPM. It sounds like the timing is not where it should be (one possibility); I would want to check the oil change history on this car and look under the valve covers before I did anything to it.
If your goal is to loosen a ring, MMO poured strait down the spark plug hole and left to sit overnight is the better move. Adding it to gas or oil is not going to do a lot. Then you turn over the car to blow the residual MMO in the cylinder out before re-starting. This has occasional success, not a great record. A lengthy engine flush with kerosene in the oil is more effective IME. This is a safe and sound procedure, Mercedes use to use it as a dealer maintenance technique for diesels with carbon problems (as well as many other sources). Putting some Gumout Regane HM or Techron in the fuel is MUCH more effective for cleaning than MMO. You need to look into the valve covers to check for sludge before running a flush, for the reasons L2K outlined above.
I do hear the sound difference you are pointing out. I can't say what it is because of w/o being able to move around the engine and isolate it and listen to components. The first thing that comes to mind is Oil Control Valves, actually, or it could be a misfire but you should have a CEL if that is going on at that RPM. It sounds like the timing is not where it should be (one possibility); I would want to check the oil change history on this car and look under the valve covers before I did anything to it.