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1MZ-FE occasional misfire only when idle for long.

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Old 10-27-18, 04:29 PM
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cdvyas
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Default 1MZ-FE occasional misfire only when idle for long.

Hello Everyone, I own a 2001 Avalon along with an 06 GS430, my question is about my Avalon, since there is no traffic on the Toyota forum, and the ES shared the same drive-train as the Avalon, I will ask it here, I bought my 2001 Avalon for a steal because of misfire in Feb with 160k miles, it runs like a top and is in very good shape. I fixed the misfire by changing the all the plugs with NGK Platinum and also the coil for cylinder 2 and that fixed the misfire. But when I sat at a red light for more than 25-30 seconds, the CEL would blink and one I start driving it stops as the misfire goes away. My mechanic said I have a compression problem in Cylinder 2, but here is the thing... My car burns ZERO oil and doesn't smoke so I don't think that there is an issue with rings. Now I keep the misfire away by raising the idle from 750-900rpm and there would be NO misfire at idle. The injector are good according to my mechanic as there are no lean codes. A possibility is that the valves and rings could be stuck or there must be carbon buildup from the past, I plan on dumping Marvel Mystery oil in my oil and gas tank and drive it hard. Do you all really think with my symptoms, I have worn piston rings and would have to live with the low idle misfire for life or could this be sludge buildup from past giving lower compression in cylinder 2? The oil cap does looked caked up with some gunk. He said all Cylinders are around 170 and Cyl 2 is around 150. Please advice.

Last edited by cdvyas; 10-27-18 at 04:46 PM.
Old 10-27-18, 04:52 PM
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LeX2K
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Has a compression test been done by you or just the mechanic? You need to look at live data instead of only relying on fault codes, also it would be a good idea to pull the front valve cover to check for sludge.
Old 10-27-18, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Lexus2000
Has a compression test been done by you or just the mechanic? You need to look at live data instead of only relying on fault codes, also it would be a good idea to pull the front valve cover to check for sludge.
It was done by the mechanic... I don't have the tools or capability to pull the cover off or take live data, the oil looks decent on the dipstick, the oil change was done by the PO and I have not driven it much since (only 2500 miles) so it is still good. I don't think that there would be major buildup inside, but I guess it is just enough to not make the cylinder 2 to function properly at very low rpm for extended period. Again, I can keep the misfire away by raising the idle about 100-150 rpm, which I don't want to do for the time I have the car and I won't be able to sell it when I eventually do for a good amount with this issue. To add, when I cleaned the throttle body, the resonator and intake hose were moist from oil... is this related to buildup in rings/valves? I find it hard to believe that I have permanent problem(as claimed by my mechanic, who recently quit) with the engine when my engine burns no oil or smoke.
Ps I got inspired to use engine cleaner from this thread, except his issue was with burning oil whereas mine is with low idle misfire, compression situation is similar in both cases.

Last edited by cdvyas; 10-27-18 at 05:13 PM.
Old 10-28-18, 06:55 AM
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The first, easy thing to do is to swap the plug and coil to different cylinders and see if the DTC tracks with the ignition components or stays with the cylinder. For example, if the code is with cylinder 4, move the plug to cylinder 2 and the coil to cylinder 6, and see what happens.

It is normal for the oil fill hole to have coke on it because of the anti-splash baffle built into the cover. You really can’t judge anything by that. Sludge is a real issue, but only from serious neglect, and unlikely to cause this particular dtc. Let’s set that issue aside for now, but come back to it later if it really worries you. FYI, instead of mmo in the gas, go to walmart and get two bottles of Gumout Regane High Mileage, the 6oz bottles ~$5 each. Run them in sequential tanks of fuel. Mmo will act as an upper cylinder lube temporarily, but not be diagnostically usefull here.

if you have a smartphone and $5, you can get live data as L2k said. It is not hard. What is the exact CEL you are getting? What oil is actually in it, how many miles on it, and how confident are you really in the po’s maintenance regime? 160k on a 2001 Avalon implies the sparrk plug seals could be leaking likes sieves, even if not showing measurably on the dipstick, compounding a plug or coil problem.

Sorry to hear the Toyota forum was not helpfull. I used to be a mod there years ago, And specifically for the Avalon sub-forum to which you would be referring. But the admin got extremely - weirdly and offensively- political and I and others left. It is sad to hear that or other things has led to such a drop in usability.

Last edited by Oro; 10-28-18 at 07:01 AM.
Old 10-28-18, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Oro
The first, easy thing to do is to swap the plug and coil to different cylinders and see if the DTC tracks with the ignition components or stays with the cylinder. For example, if the code is with cylinder 4, move the plug to cylinder 2 and the coil to cylinder 6, and see what happens.

It is normal for the oil fill hole to have coke on it because of the anti-splash baffle built into the cover. You really can’t judge anything by that. Sludge is a real issue, but only from serious neglect, and unlikely to cause this particular dtc. Let’s set that issue aside for now, but come back to it later if it really worries you. FYI, instead of mmo in the gas, go to walmart and get two bottles of Gumout Regane High Mileage, the 6oz bottles ~$5 each. Run them in sequential tanks of fuel. Mmo will act as an upper cylinder lube temporarily, but not be diagnostically usefull here.

if you have a smartphone and $5, you can get live data as L2k said. It is not hard. What is the exact CEL you are getting? What oil is actually in it, how many miles on it, and how confident are you really in the po’s maintenance regime? 160k on a 2001 Avalon implies the sparrk plug seals could be leaking likes sieves, even if not showing measurably on the dipstick, compounding a plug or coil problem.

Sorry to hear the Toyota forum was not helpfull. I used to be a mod there years ago, And specifically for the Avalon sub-forum to which you would be referring. But the admin got extremely - weirdly and offensively- political and I and others left. It is sad to hear that or other things has led to such a drop in usability.
Hello, thanks for the guidance. I had already swapped coils and all the plugs are new on it, the oil in it is 2000 miles old, changed by PO so no idea what it is. The P0302 code only comes when I let it idle at 700-750 rpm for like 30 secs(comes sooner with even low idle), if I raise the idle speed to 850-900 rpm, it never shows up, so it is only an issue at low idle. Also, I was going to add MMO to the oil not fuel. Looking at the history, I bought this car as non-operating and the tags were 2 years old on it, so it was sitting for a certain point of time, which could be a cause of old sludge sitting and effected CYL 2 the most... I plan to go to Wal-mart, buy a quart to MMO and dumping it in oil until I change it like 500 miles later, should be enough cleaning for that baby. BTW I paid $950 for the car, great shape (silver mist), no rips or tears in Leather, everything works, and there are no rattles or creak in the interior... super smooth ride. Ps it was owned by an old person first 10 years of its like and they only put 50k miles on it in 10 years.

Last edited by cdvyas; 10-28-18 at 12:17 PM.
Old 10-28-18, 01:43 PM
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Low mileage usually means short trips this type of driving is much more likely to cause sludge. On your code if it is caused by a compression problem then obviously no amount of hitting the car with a parts cannon is going to help. Without a leak down test being done you don't know if the compression loss is a piston/ring issue or valves, internal engine issues on the 1MZ are rare outside of the infamous sludging. I would pull the valve cover before dumping in any cleaners if the engine is a sludge monster then cleaners can clog the oil pick up screen and it will be goodbye engine.
Old 10-28-18, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Lexus2000
Low mileage usually means short trips this type of driving is much more likely to cause sludge. On your code if it is caused by a compression problem then obviously no amount of hitting the car with a parts cannon is going to help. Without a leak down test being done you don't know if the compression loss is a piston/ring issue or valves, internal engine issues on the 1MZ are rare outside of the infamous sludging. I would pull the valve cover before dumping in any cleaners if the engine is a sludge monster then cleaners can clog the oil pick up screen and it will be goodbye engine.
He said that valves are not the problem, it is the rings in that piston... Question is are they stuck or worn? Again No oil burning or smoking. I highly doubt worn from the fairly low miles... If stuck, MMO can do wonders for me. But my oil is full, I don't think I can dump in an extra quart without taking some oil out.

Last edited by cdvyas; 10-28-18 at 04:01 PM.
Old 10-28-18, 04:30 PM
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Next time that happenes and idle goes down, put it in reverse and see if that makes a difference.
Old 10-28-18, 05:21 PM
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A ring seized in the piston ring groove will cause the ring to wear out on one side because the ring can't float/self center. I don't know if you believe your mechanic or not first you said:
My car burns ZERO oil and doesn't smoke so I don't think that there is an issue with rings.
Then you said:
He said that valves are not the problem, it is the rings in that piston... Question is are they stuck or worn?
Do you believe your mechanic correctly diagnosed or not? Either way I've given you advice but you are ignoring it so do what you want.
Old 10-28-18, 05:54 PM
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I had already swapped coils and all the plugs are new on it,
OK, that doesn't necessarily tell us if it is possibly ignition related or not. It does not matter if the plugs are new or not. Did it do it with an old set of plugs AND the new plugs? If not, swap two plugs around to see what happens. The very first thing to check is the plugs, since that is by far the MOST common source of a single cylinder ignition problem.

Sludge is a problem to take seriously, but I just don't see it causing this problem. One of the biggest things that changes when going from 600 to 900 rpm is available current from the alternator. This can overcome a fault in a plug. This must be definitely ruled out before chasing other possible causes.

I am with L2K that it is very unusual to have an internal engine problem like rings, so I'd want to double or triple check that diagnosis. I would also find it unlikely that you have a serious ring issue and zero oil use and normal looking oil - there should be signs.
Old 10-28-18, 06:20 PM
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@Lexus2000 , you guessed it, that day my mechanic was in a rush and worked on my car in rush, so I DON'T trust him, he got jealous to begin with because I got such deal on the car. He was just like "It has a bad engine and you just have to live with the misfire/CEL for life." Which I don't think is the case, also he recently quit so I can't even go back and make him re-diagnose and most other mechanics around me are crooks. I am kind of on my own other than you guys trying to help me here, which I really appreciate. Also I am considering all of your advises on here. Sorry that you felt I was ignoring your advice. I just don't trust my mechanic's opinion to begin with so I myself don't know that the real issue is here, but I do know that isn't non-fixable and major.

@Oro I was initially guessing that the Cyl 2 wiring harness plug might be bad that causes misfire at low idle. Yes, it misfired at idle even with the old set. Alternator too was changed by PO with OEM Denso unit.
To summarize, I do believe there is slight compression issue as I listened to other 1MZ crank and mine doesn't crank on constant note, when I crank, there is a slight change in note in the way it cranks which tells one that there is a compression issue. But I am assuming that it is fixable as there are no major compression issues like oil burning, smoke or loss of power.

Last edited by cdvyas; 10-28-18 at 06:33 PM.
Old 10-29-18, 06:44 PM
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OK, if you are confident that it's not ignition related, then it's time to do a compression test. You can borrow a gauge for free from most auto parts stores if you don't have one. Since it's a front bank cylinder you're in luck; it's not so difficult.

Use a flashlight and look at the piston tops to see what they look like (lots of carbon or such), examine the end of the plug to "read" it. Also, you do need to poke a light around the oil fill baffle and check for sludge/deposits. Note if there is oil in the spark plug well before you remove the plug. It can cause these problems if a seal is leaking. If compression is off, you can repeat a leak-down test to ID which is the source. There are some chemical ways to free rings; I have had some success with that over the years. I have another vehicle very problematic about this so have tried a number of things.
Old 10-29-18, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Oro
OK, if you are confident that it's not ignition related, then it's time to do a compression test. You can borrow a gauge for free from most auto parts stores if you don't have one. Since it's a front bank cylinder you're in luck; it's not so difficult.

Use a flashlight and look at the piston tops to see what they look like (lots of carbon or such), examine the end of the plug to "read" it. Also, you do need to poke a light around the oil fill baffle and check for sludge/deposits. Note if there is oil in the spark plug well before you remove the plug. It can cause these problems if a seal is leaking. If compression is off, you can repeat a leak-down test to ID which is the source. There are some chemical ways to free rings; I have had some success with that over the years. I have another vehicle very problematic about this so have tried a number of things.
I just removed the coil recently and it was dry, no oil. Before I start doing a compression test, I bought MMO today so will put some in gas and some in oil and drive it hard, lets see if that helps. If not, then I will do a compression test, BTW, how do I keep the engine from starting while doing a compression test? Is there a fuse of wire I need to remove to stop it from starting or will it just not start with the plug removed in that one cylinder? Sorry, I am not very knowledgeable in this as I have never had to do engine tests of this caliber.
Ps listen to my engine after cold start idling at first at 1500 rpm, then the noise is louder at 0:21-0:30 time in recording at 1200 rpm, is this noise normal or is this lifer/valve noise? If not normal than could be source of the misfire with buildup on the valves/lifter... let me know what you think.
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Last edited by cdvyas; 10-29-18 at 11:12 PM.
Old 10-30-18, 03:02 PM
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You need to pull a fuse for the ignition to cut off spark to all cylinders. It will fire on five and then run unevenly. I can't recall where it is off hand, but check the fuse box map for both the engine box and the dash fuses (there are more fuses behind the little storage tray to the left of the wheel on the ES; it pops out with slight pressure).

If your goal is to loosen a ring, MMO poured strait down the spark plug hole and left to sit overnight is the better move. Adding it to gas or oil is not going to do a lot. Then you turn over the car to blow the residual MMO in the cylinder out before re-starting. This has occasional success, not a great record. A lengthy engine flush with kerosene in the oil is more effective IME. This is a safe and sound procedure, Mercedes use to use it as a dealer maintenance technique for diesels with carbon problems (as well as many other sources). Putting some Gumout Regane HM or Techron in the fuel is MUCH more effective for cleaning than MMO. You need to look into the valve covers to check for sludge before running a flush, for the reasons L2K outlined above.

I do hear the sound difference you are pointing out. I can't say what it is because of w/o being able to move around the engine and isolate it and listen to components. The first thing that comes to mind is Oil Control Valves, actually, or it could be a misfire but you should have a CEL if that is going on at that RPM. It sounds like the timing is not where it should be (one possibility); I would want to check the oil change history on this car and look under the valve covers before I did anything to it.
Old 10-30-18, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Oro
You need to pull a fuse for the ignition to cut off spark to all cylinders. It will fire on five and then run unevenly. I can't recall where it is off hand, but check the fuse box map for both the engine box and the dash fuses (there are more fuses behind the little storage tray to the left of the wheel on the ES; it pops out with slight pressure).

If your goal is to loosen a ring, MMO poured strait down the spark plug hole and left to sit overnight is the better move. Adding it to gas or oil is not going to do a lot. Then you turn over the car to blow the residual MMO in the cylinder out before re-starting. This has occasional success, not a great record. A lengthy engine flush with kerosene in the oil is more effective IME. This is a safe and sound procedure, Mercedes use to use it as a dealer maintenance technique for diesels with carbon problems (as well as many other sources). Putting some Gumout Regane HM or Techron in the fuel is MUCH more effective for cleaning than MMO. You need to look into the valve covers to check for sludge before running a flush, for the reasons L2K outlined above.

I do hear the sound difference you are pointing out. I can't say what it is because of w/o being able to move around the engine and isolate it and listen to components. The first thing that comes to mind is Oil Control Valves, actually, or it could be a misfire but you should have a CEL if that is going on at that RPM. It sounds like the timing is not where it should be (one possibility); I would want to check the oil change history on this car and look under the valve covers before I did anything to it.
Looking at Carfax, oil was religiously changed every 2-3k miles at a local Firestone. I think Timing wouldn't cause misfire on only one cylinder at low idle... Since the car was on non-op for a year, possibility is some oil from previous change must have sludged causing ring/valve issue.


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