1998 ES300 has air, spark, and fuel (at rail) but doesn't start
12-06-22, 12:56 AM
#1
3rd Gear
Thread Starter
1998 ES300 has air, spark, and fuel (at rail) but doesn't start
Recently I started up my 1998 ES300 which had been sitting untouched for 3 years. This is not the first time I've left it many years between starts, and due to stale fuel and condensation in the tank the fuel pump always needs replacing, so I replaced it.
After replacing the fuel pump it started up first turn of the key, with only about 5 seconds of cranking - awesome! I shut it off after just 1 minute to pull out as much of the stale fuel as I could, and then added 10 liters of fresh fuel. So it was probably about half and half good and bad fuel. I started it up again and let it idle for about 20 minutes. It purred like a kitten and sounded good as new.
Two days later I started it up again, it idled normally for about two minutes and then gradually slowed to a stop, quite smoothly. At first I thought maybe the fuel pump was having problems again, but the pump is running fine. When I loosen the bolt on the end of the front fuel rail and turn the key, fuel gushes out so it's at least getting to the rails.
If I spray starter fluid into the air intake, it starts immediately and runs for a few seconds, so it would seem spark is fine.
It seems like either the injectors are not letting fuel pass, or there is a blockage in the rail itself. But the way it slowed down and stopped was very gradual and smooth, as if the fuel supply overall was being reduced. If there was a blockage in a rail or injector, I would expect it to have run rough as it slowed, and I would expect it to fire at least a little bit on some cylinders still.
I suppose I could replace the injectors but it was running fine a couple days ago, and again today for a few minutes too. What the hell could I be missing?
After replacing the fuel pump it started up first turn of the key, with only about 5 seconds of cranking - awesome! I shut it off after just 1 minute to pull out as much of the stale fuel as I could, and then added 10 liters of fresh fuel. So it was probably about half and half good and bad fuel. I started it up again and let it idle for about 20 minutes. It purred like a kitten and sounded good as new.
Two days later I started it up again, it idled normally for about two minutes and then gradually slowed to a stop, quite smoothly. At first I thought maybe the fuel pump was having problems again, but the pump is running fine. When I loosen the bolt on the end of the front fuel rail and turn the key, fuel gushes out so it's at least getting to the rails.
If I spray starter fluid into the air intake, it starts immediately and runs for a few seconds, so it would seem spark is fine.
It seems like either the injectors are not letting fuel pass, or there is a blockage in the rail itself. But the way it slowed down and stopped was very gradual and smooth, as if the fuel supply overall was being reduced. If there was a blockage in a rail or injector, I would expect it to have run rough as it slowed, and I would expect it to fire at least a little bit on some cylinders still.
I suppose I could replace the injectors but it was running fine a couple days ago, and again today for a few minutes too. What the hell could I be missing?
12-06-22, 03:31 AM
#2
Pole Position
Hello,
A video of the engine spinning may be helpful.
Considering that this is not the fist time starting the car with bad or contaminated fuel, I would think it is about time to perform the fuel system overhaul. Start by checking the inside of the fuel tank for any rust, like described here, if it is present, no amount of servicing the fuel system will fix it, you will have to take the tank out and either repair or replace it. To prevent the tank from rusting in the future, make sure to fill the gas with no ethanol, which not only dries out the seals, but also collects moisture from the air. Other than that, always store the car with full tank to prevent any contact with the air.
If the tank is good, take the supply like off of the Fuel Filter on the Driver Side strut tower and turn the pump on to see what kind of fuel is going to be exiting, if it is clean, I would strongly suggest to get a new fuel filter, they are very often overlooked, my 2000 ES300 came with a factory one when I got it with about 200,000 miles. OEM will be the way to go of course, but Wix tends to be descent as well.
After that, take the fuel rails completely off the cars and inspect the injectors for any signs of clogging, they are very susceptible to it if you run some bad fuel through them. If they are clogged, you can either look for low mileage used ones, or try making a cleaning station out of an old intake manifold and a sturdy container that can hold about 2-3 bars of pressure. You can either get a 6V AC power supply (to play it safe), or make a PWM circuit to open and close the injectors as you flush them, otherwise it will be of a very little effect.
While in the process of cleaning the injectors, watch the spray pattern, they should create a very fine and even mist, almost like a fog, spraying about the same amount of fuel to each other. If not, you will have to either let them sit for longer, or find new injectors.
Next very important consideration is the fact that the longer the car stays parked, the more rodents will consider it their home, so before even attempting to connect a battery, you should always make sure there are no signs of nests in the intake and in the HVAC unit. The consequences can range from chewed wiring and clogged intake to severe health issues and something ... or someone getting sucked into the engine. Below is a video on how to check a car that has been sitting fora whole before attempting to start it.
All up to this point is important to do regardless of whether it is a cause of the no start issue you have, otherwise it will definitely come to haunt you later. If none of that fixed your issue, next thing would be to listen to Injectors firing as you crank the engine, then immediately unscrewing the spark plugs to see if you get fuel on them. First you will verify that the plugs didn't get fouled with oil and old fuel, and that they can still fire correctly, and Second, it will tell if the fuel is getting is getting into the engine at all.
Even with uneven and random spray pattern of the old injectors, the engine must must still try to burn it, so you should hear it try catching on every now and again instead of spinning into dead air, if it doesn't, you may have either ECU or timing issues.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
A video of the engine spinning may be helpful.
Considering that this is not the fist time starting the car with bad or contaminated fuel, I would think it is about time to perform the fuel system overhaul. Start by checking the inside of the fuel tank for any rust, like described here, if it is present, no amount of servicing the fuel system will fix it, you will have to take the tank out and either repair or replace it. To prevent the tank from rusting in the future, make sure to fill the gas with no ethanol, which not only dries out the seals, but also collects moisture from the air. Other than that, always store the car with full tank to prevent any contact with the air.
If the tank is good, take the supply like off of the Fuel Filter on the Driver Side strut tower and turn the pump on to see what kind of fuel is going to be exiting, if it is clean, I would strongly suggest to get a new fuel filter, they are very often overlooked, my 2000 ES300 came with a factory one when I got it with about 200,000 miles. OEM will be the way to go of course, but Wix tends to be descent as well.
After that, take the fuel rails completely off the cars and inspect the injectors for any signs of clogging, they are very susceptible to it if you run some bad fuel through them. If they are clogged, you can either look for low mileage used ones, or try making a cleaning station out of an old intake manifold and a sturdy container that can hold about 2-3 bars of pressure. You can either get a 6V AC power supply (to play it safe), or make a PWM circuit to open and close the injectors as you flush them, otherwise it will be of a very little effect.
While in the process of cleaning the injectors, watch the spray pattern, they should create a very fine and even mist, almost like a fog, spraying about the same amount of fuel to each other. If not, you will have to either let them sit for longer, or find new injectors.
Next very important consideration is the fact that the longer the car stays parked, the more rodents will consider it their home, so before even attempting to connect a battery, you should always make sure there are no signs of nests in the intake and in the HVAC unit. The consequences can range from chewed wiring and clogged intake to severe health issues and something ... or someone getting sucked into the engine. Below is a video on how to check a car that has been sitting fora whole before attempting to start it.
All up to this point is important to do regardless of whether it is a cause of the no start issue you have, otherwise it will definitely come to haunt you later. If none of that fixed your issue, next thing would be to listen to Injectors firing as you crank the engine, then immediately unscrewing the spark plugs to see if you get fuel on them. First you will verify that the plugs didn't get fouled with oil and old fuel, and that they can still fire correctly, and Second, it will tell if the fuel is getting is getting into the engine at all.
Even with uneven and random spray pattern of the old injectors, the engine must must still try to burn it, so you should hear it try catching on every now and again instead of spinning into dead air, if it doesn't, you may have either ECU or timing issues.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
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iforce2d (12-07-22)
12-07-22, 02:53 AM
#3
3rd Gear
Thread Starter
Hi Arsenii, thanks for taking the time to help.
As it happens I recorded the first startup a few days ago, and I took some extra video today showing the current situation:
Yes, the fuel tank has been the main source of problems over the years. This car had already been sitting unused for 5+ years before I got it in 2008. At that time I was driving it a bit and sometimes it would stutter as if fuel was blocked, but never bad enough that I couldn't make it home. It was very annoying though, so I replaced the entire fuel tank which solved the problem. Then I moved overseas for a long time and was only able to start it for a quick check every few years. It always amazed me how easily it would start every time
It was stored with a very full tank each time, except for this last 3 year stretch I think. As far as I know we don't have ethanol fuels here. Just looking at the part of the tank I can see through the fuel pump hole, there is a very fine sprinkling of surface rust in some areas but no sludge or opaqueness in the fuel itself. The fuel pump assembly is very rusty though. Here in NZ we don't have as many critters that would nest in neglected cars so I don't think that's an issue (although it is full to the brim with ants).
As a little background to why this beautiful car was never used much, the paperwork was lost after importing and before it passed the compliance checks. I bought it very cheaply and became the last in a long line of suckers who thought they would quickly get it registered and flip it for a nice profit. Originally the main issue was the lack of a statement of compliance to specify which emissions standards the engine met. This used be available from Toyota (for a tidy sum of course!) but sadly no longer. I spent many hours on the phone all over the place with zero progress, only managed to get a de-registration certificate from Singapore which proved it was not stolen there, but was irrelevant for compliance here.
It is possible to have certain regulations waived, so when I moved back to NZ in 2015 I applied for a waiver of the emissions standards requirement, which was granted but then I needed to provide proof of a 'frontal impact' standard. The next light at the end of the tunnel was a rule that makes the frontal impact standards unnecessary if the vehicle is 20 years old (don't ask me about the logic of this), so I decided to keep the car until 2018. That exemption was also granted, but then I still needed a statement of compliance for seatbelt, glazing, door retention etc. I was told it might be sufficient to find a compliance plate somewhere on the vehicle or a Lexus VIN that could be used as reference but the car seems to have neither of these. I searched high and low, under carpets and all, and the only thing it has is JIS tags on the seatbelt webbing. Apparently the VIN could be under the front of the windscreen but there is no gap in the black area of the glass there, and even when shining a powerful light in from the dashboard side I couldn't see any numbers underneath.
Over the years the value of such a car has declined, along with the overall condition of this one. The cost of compliance has of course gone up though, so with that and the cost of bringing it back to road-worthy condition, it's quite likely that even if I could get it registered and sold it would be a net negative for my bank account, plus a lot of work. Sadly it has become for me a symbol of poor decision-making, stubbornly throwing good money after bad, hatred of stupid government rules and a failed project overall. Every time I see it sitting there I kinda wish my eyes had looked somewhere else. It does provide some amusement for my friends though, who never seem to tire of asking "hey did you get that old Lexus registered yet" with a chuckle. With that and also taking up space in the driveway, I think it's finally time to get rid of it.
So to be honest I don't really have the money or inclination to get too deep into repairing things, especially if I need to make a pressurization jig like you mentioned. Mainly I just want it to be gone and maybe scrape a few dollars back somehow. Getting it running will help to get it onto a trailer, and would let me list it as "runs and drives" for a better price. I sometimes wonder if making a viral video like "Driving my perfectly good Lexus of a cliff" would be more profitable than selling it for parts...
As it happens I recorded the first startup a few days ago, and I took some extra video today showing the current situation:
Yes, the fuel tank has been the main source of problems over the years. This car had already been sitting unused for 5+ years before I got it in 2008. At that time I was driving it a bit and sometimes it would stutter as if fuel was blocked, but never bad enough that I couldn't make it home. It was very annoying though, so I replaced the entire fuel tank which solved the problem. Then I moved overseas for a long time and was only able to start it for a quick check every few years. It always amazed me how easily it would start every time
It was stored with a very full tank each time, except for this last 3 year stretch I think. As far as I know we don't have ethanol fuels here. Just looking at the part of the tank I can see through the fuel pump hole, there is a very fine sprinkling of surface rust in some areas but no sludge or opaqueness in the fuel itself. The fuel pump assembly is very rusty though. Here in NZ we don't have as many critters that would nest in neglected cars so I don't think that's an issue (although it is full to the brim with ants).
As a little background to why this beautiful car was never used much, the paperwork was lost after importing and before it passed the compliance checks. I bought it very cheaply and became the last in a long line of suckers who thought they would quickly get it registered and flip it for a nice profit. Originally the main issue was the lack of a statement of compliance to specify which emissions standards the engine met. This used be available from Toyota (for a tidy sum of course!) but sadly no longer. I spent many hours on the phone all over the place with zero progress, only managed to get a de-registration certificate from Singapore which proved it was not stolen there, but was irrelevant for compliance here.
It is possible to have certain regulations waived, so when I moved back to NZ in 2015 I applied for a waiver of the emissions standards requirement, which was granted but then I needed to provide proof of a 'frontal impact' standard. The next light at the end of the tunnel was a rule that makes the frontal impact standards unnecessary if the vehicle is 20 years old (don't ask me about the logic of this), so I decided to keep the car until 2018. That exemption was also granted, but then I still needed a statement of compliance for seatbelt, glazing, door retention etc. I was told it might be sufficient to find a compliance plate somewhere on the vehicle or a Lexus VIN that could be used as reference but the car seems to have neither of these. I searched high and low, under carpets and all, and the only thing it has is JIS tags on the seatbelt webbing. Apparently the VIN could be under the front of the windscreen but there is no gap in the black area of the glass there, and even when shining a powerful light in from the dashboard side I couldn't see any numbers underneath.
Over the years the value of such a car has declined, along with the overall condition of this one. The cost of compliance has of course gone up though, so with that and the cost of bringing it back to road-worthy condition, it's quite likely that even if I could get it registered and sold it would be a net negative for my bank account, plus a lot of work. Sadly it has become for me a symbol of poor decision-making, stubbornly throwing good money after bad, hatred of stupid government rules and a failed project overall. Every time I see it sitting there I kinda wish my eyes had looked somewhere else. It does provide some amusement for my friends though, who never seem to tire of asking "hey did you get that old Lexus registered yet" with a chuckle. With that and also taking up space in the driveway, I think it's finally time to get rid of it.
So to be honest I don't really have the money or inclination to get too deep into repairing things, especially if I need to make a pressurization jig like you mentioned. Mainly I just want it to be gone and maybe scrape a few dollars back somehow. Getting it running will help to get it onto a trailer, and would let me list it as "runs and drives" for a better price. I sometimes wonder if making a viral video like "Driving my perfectly good Lexus of a cliff" would be more profitable than selling it for parts...
12-07-22, 02:57 AM
#4
3rd Gear
Thread Starter
Sorry, forgot to mention that the Check Engine light is now showing. Looking back at the video it was not showing a few days ago.
So my first course of action will be to get one of those OBD2 readers and see what's going on with that.
EDIT: ah never mind. Apparently that light is not supposed to go off until after the engine starts, so it being on while struggling to start it is not relevant. Please ignore my stupidity.
So my first course of action will be to get one of those OBD2 readers and see what's going on with that.
EDIT: ah never mind. Apparently that light is not supposed to go off until after the engine starts, so it being on while struggling to start it is not relevant. Please ignore my stupidity.
Last edited by iforce2d; 12-07-22 at 04:06 AM. Reason: me stupid
12-07-22, 07:09 AM
#5
Pole Position
Welp, there isn't much to do then, other than to replace a fuel filter, take a look at the injectors and hope for the best i guess.. All that rust accumulated on the fuel pump will never vanish by itself, no matter how much new fuel you add, that is what likely clogged the entire system. Take the spark plugs out and clean them as well, see if that will help, while also checking that they are at least present in the engine.
One other thing to mention - do not ever start up a car without a battery. It is not there just for storing charge, it also acts as a buffer for the system, helping to avoid a bad alternator or a voltage spike from damaging anything. It appears that you got lucky this time, but it isn't always the case unfortunately. Just make sure to keep it in mind.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
One other thing to mention - do not ever start up a car without a battery. It is not there just for storing charge, it also acts as a buffer for the system, helping to avoid a bad alternator or a voltage spike from damaging anything. It appears that you got lucky this time, but it isn't always the case unfortunately. Just make sure to keep it in mind.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
Last edited by Arsenii; 12-07-22 at 07:13 AM.
12-07-22, 03:28 PM
#6
Some thing else worth noting....
There's a chance your ECM motherboard has leaking capacitors.
When the ECM capacitors start to leak it's quite common for corrosion to happen on your ECM motherboard, which in turn causes all sorts of random unpredictable issues.
Worse yet, this is a problem that becomes increasingly likely with age. The problem is not caused by hard use but rather, by time itself.
In fairness it's the early 90's Lexus models which suffered from this problem "the most" but I've seen plenty of reports of your year and model also being afflicted.
In any event, a good little oscilloscope like a DS211 or a DS212 will allow you to inspect the duty cycle pulse width of your injectors by connecting probes to the ECM output wires.
Now, I'm not saying you DEFINITELY will need to do this... but it's a diagnosis option you can fall back on at a later time, if you have to.
There's a chance your ECM motherboard has leaking capacitors.
When the ECM capacitors start to leak it's quite common for corrosion to happen on your ECM motherboard, which in turn causes all sorts of random unpredictable issues.
Worse yet, this is a problem that becomes increasingly likely with age. The problem is not caused by hard use but rather, by time itself.
In fairness it's the early 90's Lexus models which suffered from this problem "the most" but I've seen plenty of reports of your year and model also being afflicted.
In any event, a good little oscilloscope like a DS211 or a DS212 will allow you to inspect the duty cycle pulse width of your injectors by connecting probes to the ECM output wires.
Now, I'm not saying you DEFINITELY will need to do this... but it's a diagnosis option you can fall back on at a later time, if you have to.
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