Rockville

chassis is the same as an ES350? My sources are Lexus product engineers. Toyota is the parent company of Lexus. The design studios for Lexus were spun off from Toyota a few years ago however. The new designs that emerged began with the GS300/430 and then the IS250/350 and now the ES350. For years I heard that the RX300 was built on a Camry platform from those that had read it in magazines. These are both unibodies and they are quite dissimilar if you take the time look them over underneath. One weighs 4,000 lbs and the other 3,200 lbs. Another one was that the 2nd Gen. GS and the Avalon were variations of the same car. Of course the GS was a RWD and the Avalon a FWD and not related. The unibody of the ES350 is not the unibody of the Camry. They are not congruent. They are not interchangeable. They both have FWD layouts with common powertrains and are similar. The end result is a different drive experience and contact points and materials, suspension and ergonomic design etc. There is liberal use of more expensive high tensile strength steel in critical areas. The ES350 is not a rebadged '07Camry folks. I'm sure Toyota salespeople like to imply that as Lexus has the best reputation of any brand.

Is an Audi just a rebadged VW?

Rock

Threxx

Yes. My source/proof (I can provide additional if you'd like but so far you have provided none except hearsay.
2007 Lexus ES
ES350 3.5L
Chassis Code: GSV40
Engine Code: 2GR-FSE


2007 Camry V6
Camry 3.5L
Chassis Code: GSV40
Engine Code: 2GR-FSE

Identical chassis code.

You mean the actual engineers who designed these cars or more like the marketing people or marketing material put out for the cars?

Don't confused design studios for engineering studios. I fully understand and appreciate the fact that in terms of interior plastics, sheet metal, and just about everything that has a look or feel to it, that the 07+ ES and Camry are two completely different animals. Heck, even the 02+ ES/Camry on the inside didn't even seem remotely related. The ES was gorgeous inside and I felt the Camry was flat out boring/cheap looking. But we're talking about the mechanics here. The chassis, suspension, and so on.


It's true that starting with the GS on forward, of these cars have been designed to take after the corporate LF-S-themed look - but again, looks do not have much if anything to do with the mechanical PLATFORM that the vehicle is built on.

Modern day engineering allows for a company to take a platform and make dimensional changes to it - that's why the original Camry platform served as the foundation, albeit extended and reinforced, for the Avalon, RX300, Highlander, and Sienna. Almost all manufacturers are doing this to some extent or another these days. I mean, name a company and I can name several cars and unibody SUVs that are all riding on the same basic platform.
I mean just for example, the IS and GS has pretty significantly different dimensions yet ride on the same basic platform, and they don't even have the same chassis code!

Again, platform sharing is not a bad thing. I mean for example, the Honda Ridgeline pickup truck is actually riding on an extended and reinforced 03+ Honda Accord chassis along with the addition of a traditional body on frame platform - it's a hybrid platform and because of it allows people the best of both worlds - a smooth somewhat car-like ride, but towing capacity and off-road durability more akin to a truck.

This means what? The chassis of a vehicle is far from the only source of weight. The RX sits quite a bit higher and is extended in length as well. Not to mention being a typical Lexus is loaded with additional sound deadener, features, etc. More content = more weight. Not to mention you've exagerated the difference a bit - A well equipped FWD V6 Camry is about 3450 pounds. A similarly equipped FWD V6 RX330 is about 3850. 400 pounds difference, not 800.

I don't know who in the world said that but the Avalon has never been remotely related to the GS platform. The Avalon is an extended Camry platform. The GS has been its own unique platform, only shared with the IS (1G IS and 2G GS shared, 2G IS and 3G GS shared) with its only Toyota roots being outside of the country (Aristo).

It's definitely a different driving experience, but this is not due to the chassis, it's due to a far enhanced interior, better feature content, better quality control, more luxury-tuned suspension (Again, the tuning of a suspenion does not affect the chassis itself - there are many vehicles that come with different suspension tuning options), better sound deadening, and a myriad of other things, but NOT the chassis.

Unless the high tensile strength steel was used in areas of the chassis and not just the body or other components, then it has nothing to do with the platform itself. But for that matter, if you've been reading this off the press materials I suspect they're referring to the exact same high tensile strength steel additions that the Camry received for '07 as well - such as connecting the cowl to the stut towers with high tensile strength steel - this was an improvement to the chassis that both vehicles received.

The definition of rebadge is a gray area. In my opinion the Lexus ES, especially the 02+ and even moreso the 07+ is definitely not just a rebadge. But it DOES ride on the same platform and share the large majority of its 'underneath the skin' mechanical components. Again, I don't consider this a bad thing. You pay more for the ES, but you get a whole lot more luxury for that extra money, too.

Again, that depends on your definition of rebadge.
The Audi A4, for example was built on the exact same platform until the 2006 model (which is the model I have) at which point it developed some completely unique aspects to the actual chassis and suspension which are not shared by the new Passat. All in all though it's still very much the same platform, so for simplicity's sake I'd say my A4 is a sportier Passat chassis.

If you really care to read more, this article has some interesting info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_A4

rogers2

Great write up! I still think it's funny people would say or think the ES is better RL. But I guess that's my imo.

Rockville

Threxx. The term platform is not in favor anymore and has been replaced with architecture in carspeak. Even if the chassis code designation is the same the ride is different and the two are not congruent which was my main distinction. Another thread shows an interview with the chief engineer of the ES350 design team, Hiroyuki Hirata. His design approach is Zenlike as he tries to imagine the soul of the car first. He says that they use the frame as a building block and then the designers create content that will improve the experience of the driver/passengers. This "content" is what you pay extra for and since the market is competitive and the less expensive car can seem to have more value there will be content that is fought for and some content is edited out of the final design for cost reasons. The ES350 is a big jump in content for the model. There are too many firsts to list but Gen 5 Navigation/ 2nd gen Bluetooth with backup camera on the bright new VGA screen is my favorite. The optional rear seat side airbags and the twin chambered front passenger airbag that takes impact load and transfers it to the chest instead of the head and face are significant safety advances. VSC is now standard which is consistent with the rest of the Lexus lineup. The new 6 speed automatic is very smart and very smooth shifting. Sonar parking assist. The sound deadening is scrupulous enough to better the original LS. The new subframes, vibration cancelling engine mounts and acoustic barrier windshield laminate are content that reduces NVH to miniscule levels. The Lexus frames have utilized more high tensile strength steel for other generations and moreso in this one especially in the critical B pillar and over the top to the other B pillar. If I were in an accident I'd want to be in the Lexus which statistically has proven to be safer than the Camry of the same chassis code.

My point was that the differences are in the details. It is these differences that vault the new ES350 into a luxury category that is uninhabited in the same price class. The terms "near luxury" and "entry level luxury" no longer can be used to describe what Hirata's team has designed. Just as the soul is the inhabitant of the body but gives it life. This ES350 has a unique essence of its creator's intentions also.....

I forgot to mention the Acura RL which has been the favorite of many car rags, sorry. It's more GS in character really. It doesn't measure up in luxury to the new ES350 either.

Rock

Threxx

We weren't discussing the merits of content between the Camry and the ES. I've always been an advocate of the Lexus providing quite a bit more for the dollar and be a worthy consideration for those considering a fully loaded Camry to potentially step up to the ES. However, the content of a car has nothign to do with the chassis that it rides on. That's what we were discussing and it is the same chassis, still, shared between the two cars.

Quit backpedaling.

Rockville

If you take the Camry spaceframe alone and put it next to the ES350 denuded of all suspension, windshield, even doors they are different. The Lexus frames use different and more expensive materials making it stronger/stiffer and that's what you want. They are similar enough to have a chassis family designation however. So if you define the Chassis as the skeleton of the car and you compare them they are in fact different. Now from there when you add the suspension and subframes they are also different and have different geometries, dimensions and materials. Now you add the remaining sheet metal and doors and of course that is different. Then the sound deadening and acoustic barrier windshield and that is different. The seats and their materials are different. To me the same means congruent or interchangeable not similar. To you it means close enough for horseshoes maybe...

I don't disagree with your data or position enough to really make a strong case so I will desist and shut up.

Rock