Cold start RPM spike
10-25-06, 07:52 PM
#46
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Yes, you're right, orange and than red. Light-sabre start up, is that what you call it? I heard some kind of a scratchy noise everytime I started the car. I thought that was a mechanical problem. What is it supposed to be anyway?
10-29-06, 01:55 PM
#47
Trying to keep the Trans stuff in one place (or, my feeble attempt anyway 
)
gasarno - If you talk to your dealer, ask how they are going to test for this issue. I say test, because in many cases (me included) the dealer is fairly clueless on how to replicate the condition. If your dealer states "couldn't replicate", then you'll have to prove it to them that this is an issue.
ES350Bob - I've been thinking about your situation - all of it - and think that if your trans has issues, that will be your ticket out of this mess. The concensus right now seems to be that if your get to the point where you can prove the trans issue (or have a helpful dealer), then you're almost certainly going to get the option of a new trans. Which means you can then request a buy back of your vehicle, which will give you options. What you choose to do at that point is up to you. I can recreate this flare on demand now, so its pretty easy for me. If you have the trans issue, forget everything else and concentrate on that.
In my case I'm almost certain the TSIB won't work. I've got the 'whine' thing going on once the engine\trans is hot, so my trans has other issues anyway. I doubt the TSIB will work in my case, and from what others have posted it seems some don't even get their cars back from the dealers. They do the TSIB which fails, then they go directly to trans replacement.
)gasarno - If you talk to your dealer, ask how they are going to test for this issue. I say test, because in many cases (me included) the dealer is fairly clueless on how to replicate the condition. If your dealer states "couldn't replicate", then you'll have to prove it to them that this is an issue.
ES350Bob - I've been thinking about your situation - all of it - and think that if your trans has issues, that will be your ticket out of this mess. The concensus right now seems to be that if your get to the point where you can prove the trans issue (or have a helpful dealer), then you're almost certainly going to get the option of a new trans. Which means you can then request a buy back of your vehicle, which will give you options. What you choose to do at that point is up to you. I can recreate this flare on demand now, so its pretty easy for me. If you have the trans issue, forget everything else and concentrate on that.
In my case I'm almost certain the TSIB won't work. I've got the 'whine' thing going on once the engine\trans is hot, so my trans has other issues anyway. I doubt the TSIB will work in my case, and from what others have posted it seems some don't even get their cars back from the dealers. They do the TSIB which fails, then they go directly to trans replacement.
10-29-06, 02:38 PM
#48
Lexus Champion
Trying to keep the Trans stuff in one place (or, my feeble attempt anyway )
gasarno - If you talk to your dealer, ask how they are going to test for this issue. I say test, because in many cases (me included) the dealer is fairly clueless on how to replicate the condition. If your dealer states "couldn't replicate", then you'll have to prove it to them that this is an issue.
ES350Bob - I've been thinking about your situation - all of it - and think that if your trans has issues, that will be your ticket out of this mess. The concensus right now seems to be that if your get to the point where you can prove the trans issue (or have a helpful dealer), then you're almost certainly going to get the option of a new trans. Which means you can then request a buy back of your vehicle, which will give you options. What you choose to do at that point is up to you. I can recreate this flare on demand now, so its pretty easy for me. If you have the trans issue, forget everything else and concentrate on that.
In my case I'm almost certain the TSIB won't work. I've got the 'whine' thing going on once the engine\trans is hot, so my trans has other issues anyway. I doubt the TSIB will work in my case, and from what others have posted it seems some don't even get their cars back from the dealers. They do the TSIB which fails, then they go directly to trans replacement.
)gasarno - If you talk to your dealer, ask how they are going to test for this issue. I say test, because in many cases (me included) the dealer is fairly clueless on how to replicate the condition. If your dealer states "couldn't replicate", then you'll have to prove it to them that this is an issue.
ES350Bob - I've been thinking about your situation - all of it - and think that if your trans has issues, that will be your ticket out of this mess. The concensus right now seems to be that if your get to the point where you can prove the trans issue (or have a helpful dealer), then you're almost certainly going to get the option of a new trans. Which means you can then request a buy back of your vehicle, which will give you options. What you choose to do at that point is up to you. I can recreate this flare on demand now, so its pretty easy for me. If you have the trans issue, forget everything else and concentrate on that.
In my case I'm almost certain the TSIB won't work. I've got the 'whine' thing going on once the engine\trans is hot, so my trans has other issues anyway. I doubt the TSIB will work in my case, and from what others have posted it seems some don't even get their cars back from the dealers. They do the TSIB which fails, then they go directly to trans replacement.
I agree with your thinking on the TSIB not working, I see several posts where it failed. And that is no surprise to me at all given mine slips multiple gears 2 to 3 and 3 to 4. You have to pay real close attention to notice it is not the much heralded 3 to 4 which is why I believe this TSIB is not working, but I couldn't get anyone associated with or at Lexus to listen to me even with recordings that were not intended to catch the trans but did.
Maybe they did listen to me and others because many are getting entire trans replaced, I refused a TSIB when offered because mine was/is both gear sets. Weeks later Lexus denied me any repairs at all to the transmission and lied to me and told it was learning as they have to others on here who had the TSIB done, I knew it would not work. The other lie was mine had a TSIB during it's manufacture, anything said to get out of paying for repairs or replacement.
The truth is though, where we paid the kind of money we did we should not have to try to pay attention in order to then have control over teaching svc. or Lexus to duplicate for them something they should be able to see, hear or measure.
This is what any Lexus ES350 owner should resent on behalf of all of us whether they got a great car or not.
We have to prove and live with wind noise with no repair offered, we basically do it ourselves where abatement ideas or actions are concerned.
We have to prove and live with diesel engine knocking tapping with no repair offered for the valves they clearly know have issues.
We have to prove or live with transmission slipping or learning as they like to call it unless and until it does it all the time where they cannot deny it anymore.
We end up with several of us being deceived and told things are normal by Lexus corporate or on behalf of them, I was, Riley was over his missing body welds, others about their learning transmissions. Denials about excessive wind noise renamed buffeting.
I hope you get a new transmission and that even it is worthy of what you paid and have had to tolerate because you paid for a new car, paid a lot of money for it too, not so you could be put in the position you are in. And yes, you are right, when this slips more often as your's began doing with more miles, or maybe sooner now with much cooler am temps, they will have no excuse to then do what they should have done months ago, either replace this car or give me my money back.
10-29-06, 04:01 PM
#49
Bob, sorry your trans issue is not as apparent as other members. If it has displayed issues early on, those seem to become more apparent over time. So hang in there. How many miles do you have now?
My wife and I have been discussing what we're going to do if it comes time for the trans replacement. We absolutely love the ES350 design both inside and out. We don't have faith in the ES350 production at this time to be able to provide us with a zero problem car. We want as close as possible to a zero problem car. We also want to experience the fantastic customer service at Lexus that we've heard about from the US CL members. So the next few weeks for us should be interesting. We want to be happy at Lexus, and we're doing our best to communicate that to them. I'll be keeping everyone advised as to what happens.
My wife and I have been discussing what we're going to do if it comes time for the trans replacement. We absolutely love the ES350 design both inside and out. We don't have faith in the ES350 production at this time to be able to provide us with a zero problem car. We want as close as possible to a zero problem car. We also want to experience the fantastic customer service at Lexus that we've heard about from the US CL members. So the next few weeks for us should be interesting. We want to be happy at Lexus, and we're doing our best to communicate that to them. I'll be keeping everyone advised as to what happens.
10-30-06, 03:21 AM
#50
Lexus Champion
Bob, sorry your trans issue is not as apparent as other members. If it has displayed issues early on, those seem to become more apparent over time. So hang in there. How many miles do you have now?
My wife and I have been discussing what we're going to do if it comes time for the trans replacement. We absolutely love the ES350 design both inside and out. We don't have faith in the ES350 production at this time to be able to provide us with a zero problem car. We want as close as possible to a zero problem car. We also want to experience the fantastic customer service at Lexus that we've heard about from the US CL members. So the next few weeks for us should be interesting. We want to be happy at Lexus, and we're doing our best to communicate that to them. I'll be keeping everyone advised as to what happens.
My wife and I have been discussing what we're going to do if it comes time for the trans replacement. We absolutely love the ES350 design both inside and out. We don't have faith in the ES350 production at this time to be able to provide us with a zero problem car. We want as close as possible to a zero problem car. We also want to experience the fantastic customer service at Lexus that we've heard about from the US CL members. So the next few weeks for us should be interesting. We want to be happy at Lexus, and we're doing our best to communicate that to them. I'll be keeping everyone advised as to what happens.
My car has 1,300 miles on it and from reading of you car seems similar as to initial lack of consistancy then getting more often.
Garsarno posted his slipped 2 to 3 and that is gear set most often in mine but also 3 to 4 that's why I knew the TSIB wouldn't work, that and over time that annoying downshifting has gotten where you feel it more in the car. You could easily think it's just 3 to 4 and fall in line to go get a TSIB but in my case anyway it happened while recording for engine noise and you can tell it's the 2 to 3.
My engine with it's diesel knocking tapping is as yours as well, after a while you bang metal on metal over a length of time and one piece is going to give slight, though still loud it is slightly less so over time yet adds a loose piece aspect to it over time and next includes present when hot as a clacking sound at idle.
It is the repeated deceptions from Lexus corporate that bother me and others on here too. Some dealers participate in it as well in calling the wind noise buffeting to point you have to say to them, ok, well then it has extreme "buffeting" then. Then there are the claims the trans are "learning" not slipping and over engine noise the outrageous claims of it's the fuel injection or it's the timing chain, both total BS claims used on people to avoid doing anything.
Like you, the next few weeks for me should be interesting as well where final resolution to this car and it's defects is concerned.
10-30-06, 01:08 PM
#51
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You know what? With all this talk about the cold spike RPM/tranny flare issue, I had never--until a few days ago--checked to see if my car had the same issue. One day, for whatever reason I decided to check; it took me a while since I wasn't seeing it in 1-2 or 2-3 upshifts (I was in a parking lot, which sorta makes it a bit more difficult to get to the 3-4 upshift point)...but on the first 3-4 upshift I saw the needle jump up around 500 rpm before dropping down like it's supposed to once the upshift is completed. FWIW--subsequent 3-4 upshifts during that particular engine cycle were fine, nor did I observe any similar 3-4 flares after a warm start (e.g., engine off for around 30 minutes or so). Also--I have not yet been able to detect (or even successfully duplicate) the 3-4 flare since then, even when subsequent cold-start opportunities arose...maybe because I couldn't get going fast enough to reach 3-4 (e.g., while pulling away from my garage in the morning--I have to drive roughly a mile in a 25 mph residential area before I can reach a street that'll allow me to drive at typical 4th-gear speeds), and by the time the first opportunity for a 3-4 shift arose, maybe the tranny was warm enough to cooperate?
10-30-06, 03:44 PM
#52
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Hi all, Yes toneman you have it correct as per
TC004-06 3RD - 4TH GEAR SHIFT FLARE (REVISED)
8/7/2006 - 2007 model year ES 350 vehicles.
Some customers may experience a sharp increase in RPM between the 3rd to 4th
gear shift point during the first ten minutes of operation after a cold start. A revised transmission valve body has been developed to address this concern.
NOTE: This TSIB ONLY applies to vehicles that have been confirmed to have the customer concerns listed above.
File is associated with other vehicles. Transmission & Clutch
Can someone tell me how the "valve body" works. I also heard over at toyotanation.com that toyota was changing transmission manufacture. Good news may be coming our way. I talked to my Lexus dealer about the "flare" they were ready to order the part for me but I told her I'll wait a bit to see what's going to happen over the next few weeks. I really don't want to take a new car apart if there's a fix coming soon. I understand there a new tsib just came out to address this problem I think twister was talking about it one or two nights ago but not sure. So I'm just hanging in there for now.
TC004-06 3RD - 4TH GEAR SHIFT FLARE (REVISED)
8/7/2006 - 2007 model year ES 350 vehicles.
Some customers may experience a sharp increase in RPM between the 3rd to 4th
gear shift point during the first ten minutes of operation after a cold start. A revised transmission valve body has been developed to address this concern.
NOTE: This TSIB ONLY applies to vehicles that have been confirmed to have the customer concerns listed above.
File is associated with other vehicles. Transmission & Clutch
Can someone tell me how the "valve body" works. I also heard over at toyotanation.com that toyota was changing transmission manufacture. Good news may be coming our way. I talked to my Lexus dealer about the "flare" they were ready to order the part for me but I told her I'll wait a bit to see what's going to happen over the next few weeks. I really don't want to take a new car apart if there's a fix coming soon. I understand there a new tsib just came out to address this problem I think twister was talking about it one or two nights ago but not sure. So I'm just hanging in there for now.
Last edited by osokuko; 10-30-06 at 04:05 PM.
10-30-06, 05:48 PM
#53
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Hi all, Yes toneman you have it correct as per
TC004-06 3RD - 4TH GEAR SHIFT FLARE (REVISED)
8/7/2006 - 2007 model year ES 350 vehicles.
Some customers may experience a sharp increase in RPM between the 3rd to 4th
gear shift point during the first ten minutes of operation after a cold start. A revised transmission valve body has been developed to address this concern.
NOTE: This TSIB ONLY applies to vehicles that have been confirmed to have the customer concerns listed above.
File is associated with other vehicles. Transmission & Clutch
Can someone tell me how the "valve body" works. I also heard over at toyotanation.com that toyota was changing transmission manufacture. Good news may be coming our way. I talked to my Lexus dealer about the "flare" they were ready to order the part for me but I told her I'll wait a bit to see what's going to happen over the next few weeks. I really don't want to take a new car apart if there's a fix coming soon. I understand there a new tsib just came out to address this problem I think twister was talking about it one or two nights ago but not sure. So I'm just hanging in there for now.
TC004-06 3RD - 4TH GEAR SHIFT FLARE (REVISED)
8/7/2006 - 2007 model year ES 350 vehicles.
Some customers may experience a sharp increase in RPM between the 3rd to 4th
gear shift point during the first ten minutes of operation after a cold start. A revised transmission valve body has been developed to address this concern.
NOTE: This TSIB ONLY applies to vehicles that have been confirmed to have the customer concerns listed above.
File is associated with other vehicles. Transmission & Clutch
Can someone tell me how the "valve body" works. I also heard over at toyotanation.com that toyota was changing transmission manufacture. Good news may be coming our way. I talked to my Lexus dealer about the "flare" they were ready to order the part for me but I told her I'll wait a bit to see what's going to happen over the next few weeks. I really don't want to take a new car apart if there's a fix coming soon. I understand there a new tsib just came out to address this problem I think twister was talking about it one or two nights ago but not sure. So I'm just hanging in there for now.
IMO - this valve body is only part of the problem... I believe in my experience with the cold rpm spike one of the passageways in the trans is being starved for fluid... In other words, it drains (cold start thing) and until the ECU says "shift" or the car is run long enough at idle before being driven. The fluid isn't present to do it's job.
The other thought I have about all of this... Toyota may be doing something with various sensors to determine engine and transmission operating temperature... They would do this to improve cold weather drivability and or expedite engine heating. It may be possible there's a simple programming issue where the system can be "faked out" and thereby causes the shift flare from 3rd to 4th.
10-30-06, 09:38 PM
#54
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Your explanation was very well done. I find that if we dwell on the details we end up with more questions than answers. So the big picture is what happen between the first day of ownership with a transmission that fuctions properly and 1500 – 2000 miles later we have a transmission with problems. The transmission is a sound design, it presented no problems at the beginning, so we know it works. I think the ECU is doing it’s job doing the directing of tasks. I know it learns over time and can change many parameters, but that thing learns fast, probably with in the first 500 miles. The sensors are reporting back correct data. So why now is there a problem with draining ATF it didn’t do that before. So far I have not read in any of the threads that the valve body actually worked. Something else is wrong. Is it an issue of poor manufacturing (castings, assembly and quality control). Is this the reason for talk of Lexus seeking a new manufacturer. It would be the best course of action and the final fix.
10-30-06, 10:03 PM
#55
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You know what? With all this talk about the cold spike RPM/tranny flare issue, I had never--until a few days ago--checked to see if my car had the same issue. One day, for whatever reason I decided to check; it took me a while since I wasn't seeing it in 1-2 or 2-3 upshifts (I was in a parking lot, which sorta makes it a bit more difficult to get to the 3-4 upshift point)...but on the first 3-4 upshift I saw the needle jump up around 500 rpm before dropping down like it's supposed to once the upshift is completed. FWIW--subsequent 3-4 upshifts during that particular engine cycle were fine, nor did I observe any similar 3-4 flares after a warm start (e.g., engine off for around 30 minutes or so). Also--I have not yet been able to detect (or even successfully duplicate) the 3-4 flare since then, even when subsequent cold-start opportunities arose...maybe because I couldn't get going fast enough to reach 3-4 (e.g., while pulling away from my garage in the morning--I have to drive roughly a mile in a 25 mph residential area before I can reach a street that'll allow me to drive at typical 4th-gear speeds), and by the time the first opportunity for a 3-4 shift arose, maybe the tranny was warm enough to cooperate?
10-31-06, 05:55 AM
#56
Lexus Champion
If you had this happening you'd know, it would not be like any typical upshift no matter the rate of acceleration where normal upshifting is present. This is an unusual slip with RPM spike and revving sound to engine that is noticeable.
10-31-06, 08:18 AM
#57
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I am seriously concerned. I have noticed the 500 rpm jump during 3-4 shift from the very beginning! I didn't relate this to the TSIB because the rpm didn't go up to 4k rpm like others. It always happens when the engine the cold (the engine thermometer shows below 0) and I accelerate hard. I thought the engine just needs some time to warm up, am I right? Is this what you experience?
10-31-06, 08:48 AM
#58
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I am seriously concerned. I have noticed the 500 rpm jump during 3-4 shift from the very beginning! I didn't relate this to the TSIB because the rpm didn't go up to 4k rpm like others. It always happens when the engine the cold (the engine thermometer shows below 0) and I accelerate hard. I thought the engine just needs some time to warm up, am I right? Is this what you experience?
10-31-06, 09:09 AM
#59
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Woo-hoo!!! Got my ES350 back!!! I was supposed to pick it up yesterday after work, and called my dealership to confirm. To my surprise, their reply was: we will be over at your work (approx 30-40 min drive) to bring your car in and take the loaner back. That is very impressive!!! In about an hour I had my car back sparkling clean (even tires!!!) with a full tank of gas... and a new tranny. From now on, I will refer to my car as 06/06 build with 10/06 tranny 
What else can I add, this morning from the cold start didn't see a problem. Yesterday on a way back from work, I felt like car was still "learning" with a new tranny. This morning, it was smooth like a butter. Maybe a product of my imagination or after driving IS250 and RX350 loaners, but acceleration feels much faster. Also, got an official paper from my dealership that warranty will be upgraded to 100k and to expect a direct letter from Lexus corporate office. Lets just hope this is an end to this problem, the one and only I had so far with ES350.
What else can I add, this morning from the cold start didn't see a problem. Yesterday on a way back from work, I felt like car was still "learning" with a new tranny. This morning, it was smooth like a butter. Maybe a product of my imagination or after driving IS250 and RX350 loaners, but acceleration feels much faster. Also, got an official paper from my dealership that warranty will be upgraded to 100k and to expect a direct letter from Lexus corporate office. Lets just hope this is an end to this problem, the one and only I had so far with ES350.
10-31-06, 09:27 AM
#60
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I called my dealer. He tried to explain that 500-750rpm is not a big issue and, for a real issue, it has to be over 1k rpm spike. He also attributed the problem to the driving condition. In my case, this spike happens uphill. But he agreed to have the car overnight and try it with me next morning.