New tranny, new problems, or is this normal?
11-09-06, 02:27 PM
#16
Lexus Champion
ES350Bob, is it possible that you have super-sensitive hearing and sense of touch that many people dont have? Im being serious here, because I'm sure many people who actually HAVE the issues are not sensitive enough to notice them. Is it possible that this flare is on every single car, and only a portion of the population notices the problem? I mean if you got a brand new car/tranny and the problem arises, that's kinda like rolling 2x snake eyes in a roll at a craps table.
I don't have sensitive hearing, in fact I thought it might not be quite as good as it used to be though I would say it is good. It is possible that many have hearing not as good as it could be and don't realize it and they don't notice some of the things as brio I think it was who posted that in his frustration over hearing wind noise etc. and several claiming their car was absent it and that is the oppposite of your curiosity about me. Don't know about that though.
As for this "flare" when it happens in your car you'd know it and if you could not quite hear the engine rev for some reason you'd at least see it at some point on tach or feel it to a degree. Or, oddly in this am case smell the hot or burning oil or fluid smell. Wanderer had that happen early on and his dealer said some labels may still be on parts in there and are burning off, so maybe that is the smell from this am but too coincidental for me it was also present after driving with a heavy "flare" happen. It is not a hot metal coating break in type smell, it is more of an oil or some fluid hot smell.
Gooch posted his new transmission in his car is hosed up, so who knows Kaius, you may be on to something with we just notice these things and others don't, except Lexus who is trying to figure out how to elliminate it. I also am aware of a guy in my area whose second car did this and his is bought back.
I'm not going to get freaked out over it as it seems there is no permanent resolution for it anyway at this time and it does not stop me from driving it or my former one either for that matter.
Besides the car is way too nice otherwise to not have it on the road, shades are required for the sun bursting off the chrome against the deep black.
If I had not gone through the first one allowing me to understand what is going on to a degree, I would be real upset though.
11-09-06, 02:39 PM
#17
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Bob... I have solid logic behind it being a programming issue. These ECU maps take year(s) to develop, especially so they react appropriately to the various conditions customers will use their vehicles. Yes, I've got the V6 Camry, but it has the same exact engine and transaxle as the ES... I'm hearing/experiencing the same issues you are, I just have a different take on them.
In brief, the valve body is actually very simple to install, the tranny case does not need to be split to change this part and replacements have failed... Next, we need to understand that this so called "vendor change" is related to the early build "snap ring" issues where the tranny basically self-destructed when the "inferior vendor" part gave way... That was a simple fix, find a new vendor and refill the parts bins on the assembly line. Other than this there is nothing the build date will indicate as fixing the flair/spike/starving/etc we're experiencing because it isn't a simple fix.
The ECU program is like a huge decision tree, problem is when the trunk or main branch of the tree fails, it wipes out all the smaller branches and leaves associated with it.
I'm willing to bet Toyota knows exactly what's causing this issue, they however cannot develop a quick enough solution because of all the "related components." Say they flash your ECU and the flair goes away, you might now be really pissed that the car say for example skips all the odd gears when cold causing sluggishness or the engine now races at 2500rpm upon cold startup, etc. or your high beams flash like the Vegas strip until the transmission temperature sender start sending a nuetral signal... Some off base associations, but I'm providing them to help describe that none of us knows how deep the ECUs (yes there are multiples) react when you take or add something to the program.... In the interim, I think Toyota is taking it on the chin and using public releations/customer service on a case by case basis to show the whiners they're making progress and keep them happy/content and most importantly QUIET. It would be nice if they just came out and said it was an ECU problem, but considering the customer base of the Camry/ES, this could be a death march because the majority of these owners haven't a clue what is going on with their car.
In brief, the valve body is actually very simple to install, the tranny case does not need to be split to change this part and replacements have failed... Next, we need to understand that this so called "vendor change" is related to the early build "snap ring" issues where the tranny basically self-destructed when the "inferior vendor" part gave way... That was a simple fix, find a new vendor and refill the parts bins on the assembly line. Other than this there is nothing the build date will indicate as fixing the flair/spike/starving/etc we're experiencing because it isn't a simple fix.
The ECU program is like a huge decision tree, problem is when the trunk or main branch of the tree fails, it wipes out all the smaller branches and leaves associated with it.
I'm willing to bet Toyota knows exactly what's causing this issue, they however cannot develop a quick enough solution because of all the "related components." Say they flash your ECU and the flair goes away, you might now be really pissed that the car say for example skips all the odd gears when cold causing sluggishness or the engine now races at 2500rpm upon cold startup, etc. or your high beams flash like the Vegas strip until the transmission temperature sender start sending a nuetral signal... Some off base associations, but I'm providing them to help describe that none of us knows how deep the ECUs (yes there are multiples) react when you take or add something to the program.... In the interim, I think Toyota is taking it on the chin and using public releations/customer service on a case by case basis to show the whiners they're making progress and keep them happy/content and most importantly QUIET. It would be nice if they just came out and said it was an ECU problem, but considering the customer base of the Camry/ES, this could be a death march because the majority of these owners haven't a clue what is going on with their car.
11-09-06, 02:48 PM
#18
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Bob... I have solid logic behind it being a programming issue. These ECU maps take year(s) to develop, especially so they react appropriately to the various conditions customers will use their vehicles. Yes, I've got the V6 Camry, but it has the same exact engine and transaxle as the ES... I'm hearing/experiencing the same issues you are, I just have a different take on them.
In brief, the valve body is actually very simple to install, the tranny case does not need to be split to change this part and replacements have failed... Next, we need to understand that this so called "vendor change" is related to the early build "snap ring" issues where the tranny basically self-destructed when the "inferior vendor" part gave way... That was a simple fix, find a new vendor and refill the parts bins on the assembly line. Other than this there is nothing the build date will indicate as fixing the flair/spike/starving/etc we're experiencing because it isn't a simple fix.
The ECU program is like a huge decision tree, problem is when the trunk or main branch of the tree fails, it wipes out all the smaller branches and leaves associated with it.
I'm willing to bet Toyota knows exactly what's causing this issue, they however cannot develop a quick enough solution because of all the "related components." Say they flash your ECU and the flair goes away, you might now be really pissed that the car say for example skips all the odd gears when cold causing sluggishness or the engine now races at 2500rpm upon cold startup, etc. or your high beams flash like the Vegas strip until the transmission temperature sender start sending a nuetral signal... Some off base associations, but I'm providing them to help describe that none of us knows how deep the ECUs (yes there are multiples) react when you take or add something to the program.... In the interim, I think Toyota is taking it on the chin and using public releations/customer service on a case by case basis to show the whiners they're making progress and keep them happy/content and most importantly QUIET. It would be nice if they just came out and said it was an ECU problem, but considering the customer base of the Camry/ES, this could be a death march because the majority of these owners haven't a clue what is going on with their car.
In brief, the valve body is actually very simple to install, the tranny case does not need to be split to change this part and replacements have failed... Next, we need to understand that this so called "vendor change" is related to the early build "snap ring" issues where the tranny basically self-destructed when the "inferior vendor" part gave way... That was a simple fix, find a new vendor and refill the parts bins on the assembly line. Other than this there is nothing the build date will indicate as fixing the flair/spike/starving/etc we're experiencing because it isn't a simple fix.
The ECU program is like a huge decision tree, problem is when the trunk or main branch of the tree fails, it wipes out all the smaller branches and leaves associated with it.
I'm willing to bet Toyota knows exactly what's causing this issue, they however cannot develop a quick enough solution because of all the "related components." Say they flash your ECU and the flair goes away, you might now be really pissed that the car say for example skips all the odd gears when cold causing sluggishness or the engine now races at 2500rpm upon cold startup, etc. or your high beams flash like the Vegas strip until the transmission temperature sender start sending a nuetral signal... Some off base associations, but I'm providing them to help describe that none of us knows how deep the ECUs (yes there are multiples) react when you take or add something to the program.... In the interim, I think Toyota is taking it on the chin and using public releations/customer service on a case by case basis to show the whiners they're making progress and keep them happy/content and most importantly QUIET. It would be nice if they just came out and said it was an ECU problem, but considering the customer base of the Camry/ES, this could be a death march because the majority of these owners haven't a clue what is going on with their car.
I read an article posted on here by someone, a link anyway, as of October announced all Camry will receive a transmission from a different supplier is what it said and I doubt they would do that instead of a software update.
They do not address diesel engine noise, or wind noise, either of which is more annoying than this trans flare in my experiences, so if this were just some software issue they'd tell us to hang in there for a while and not spend money changing out valve bodies and replacing entire transmissions to try to fit a software program.
The valve body controls fluid flow and if you had recorded under the hood as I did, that is exactly what you'd hear, a transmission linke one starved of fluid. In this case a gear set or two that are at times.
11-09-06, 03:28 PM
#19
Lexus Champion
That sounds like the Phoenix approach.
Not a bad idea to just run it and get the kinks out...LOL
I don't baby this one as much as former because this has sewing machine level volume knock where the other was cannery works. But I also don't accelerate where tach approaches 5000, maybe I should a few times and blow out all the gremlins.
11-09-06, 05:19 PM
#21
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If you can Bob, please find that article for me, it's not on any of the Camry boards, anywhere.
11-09-06, 05:42 PM
#22
Lexus Champion
ons..,
It was 2thfixr who reported it to me under the spotted front grill post of mine.
He also had prior posted that dealers were replacing whole transmissions before it was common knowledge, so he knows his stuff.
Back to software though: if it were software everyone who owns one of these would be claiming they have the flare.
Somebody else posted their dealer had told them there was a trans change being done at the factory on newer builds of the Es350 but I'll wait for the official announcement on that. It was in response to Alalex post on here about or titled....another flare.... I believe.
11-09-06, 06:24 PM
#23
If it was buggy software, they could rewrite their code and this would be solved. But this would also introduce the problem that they'd have to flash all the vehicles - some of which whose computers would probably die in the process - and that's a huge number to deal with. In that case it would be easier to just swap out transmissions and deal with a few thousand cars.
Lexus may have learnt from the whole ES300\330 software upgrade issue for the problem with that trans. I doubt they'd want to do down that road again. I think Alan lived through that whole bad episode.
So officially for now its bad transmissions. What the real issue is, we'll never know. Nor do I really care to know anymore. I wanted a nice, quiet at speed vehicle that was reliable. Something I wouldn't have to take into service all the time for stupid things like wind noise and rattles. Something I could take pride in owning and know it was the best in its field. I own a great looking car with cool electrical stuff to be sure. But mechanically I now feel like (and it often drives like) it's a Ford.
We'll know soon enough - I'm getting the TSIB done soon.
Lexus may have learnt from the whole ES300\330 software upgrade issue for the problem with that trans. I doubt they'd want to do down that road again. I think Alan lived through that whole bad episode.
So officially for now its bad transmissions. What the real issue is, we'll never know. Nor do I really care to know anymore. I wanted a nice, quiet at speed vehicle that was reliable. Something I wouldn't have to take into service all the time for stupid things like wind noise and rattles. Something I could take pride in owning and know it was the best in its field. I own a great looking car with cool electrical stuff to be sure. But mechanically I now feel like (and it often drives like) it's a Ford.
We'll know soon enough - I'm getting the TSIB done soon.
11-09-06, 06:45 PM
#24
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I bring this up, because I'm seeing a much higher (60-80%) "online" bithc rate about this tranny flair. Now considering the market for ES and Camrys is 10 fold the market for snowmobiles, I think it's safe to say, everyone has the tranny flair who owns the 3.5 V6 in the ES and Camry configured vehicles.
Yes, there are some who do not notice it... But that's only indicative of.
1. they're not operating under the same conditions as people who do experience it.
2. they're like my wife and wouldn't know when the transmission shifted to begin with
3. they simply never care enough to notice
I will say this... Those who experience the flair have yet to ever comment about how their car needed to be towed, or no longer ran. Software or mechanical, there's so far no correlation I can find with someone's shift flair and being stranded, some people have 15K+ on the clock of their 2007s.
I agree 100% there's an issue, I even hear the noises you describe with my naked ear... But I'm also well aware fluid movement and close tolerance equipment can make some whiny noises, many of which subside with age. I'm going to wait this out a little longer, it only happens once a day and there's still a pile of warranty yet... In the meantime, I think your experience also proves that with the HYPE, throwing ****-poor solutions at minor inconveniences won't get you very far. It'll all be sorted out soon enough, we'll all be suprised when it is.
11-09-06, 06:56 PM
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If it was buggy software, they could rewrite their code and this would be solved. But this would also introduce the problem that they'd have to flash all the vehicles - some of which whose computers would probably die in the process - and that's a huge number to deal with. In that case it would be easier to just swap out transmissions and deal with a few thousand cars.
Lexus may have learnt from the whole ES300\330 software upgrade issue for the problem with that trans. I doubt they'd want to do down that road again. I think Alan lived through that whole bad episode.
We'll know soon enough - I'm getting the TSIB done soon.
Lexus may have learnt from the whole ES300\330 software upgrade issue for the problem with that trans. I doubt they'd want to do down that road again. I think Alan lived through that whole bad episode.
We'll know soon enough - I'm getting the TSIB done soon.
Next, you bring up a huge point considering the whole PR side of the equation, especially when there's tooling in place to pump these things out by the 100's of thousands.
Think of an issue now where you have a developer geek stand up and say he has the perfect solution, no more tranny flair... All the knowitalls stand around and review the results and they all conclude it's a go and they release the code to the dealers. Everyone has it installed the next time they go in for service it takes 15 minutes to upload and brief road test... Now then at precisely 527.3 miles into ES350Bob's "trouble free" driving experience after having the reflash.... An air horn goes off.
Now what?
11-10-06, 05:55 AM
#26
I bring this up, because I'm seeing a much higher (60-80%) "online" bithc rate about this tranny flair. Now considering the market for ES and Camrys is 10 fold the market for snowmobiles, I think it's safe to say, everyone has the tranny flair who owns the 3.5 V6 in the ES and Camry configured vehicles.
At 7,500 miles, I have no tranny flare, and, knock on Lexus, it hopefully won't be appearing in my car at all.
11-10-06, 09:00 PM
#27
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I'm also on my second tranny now and have probably two weeks or so on the new one. I haven't fully qualified the behavior yet, but I do believe that I'm experiencing similar flare/slipping symptoms to (albeit not quite as noticeable as) those I experienced with the original transmission. I think I notice the issue gradually growing more noticeable, but not just certain yet...
With respect to the ECU discussion, I suspect we'll likely never know how long it actually takes for the device to program itself (and perhaps it can continously reprogram itself indefinitely if parameter thresholds are exceeded after programming would otherwise have been previously 'completed') unless a Lexus insider were to step up and explain the specifics of the programming algorithm. I'm relatively sure that Lexus would perceive the divulgence of such information as problematic and consequently we're unlikely to ever see it...
For what it's worth, I had an ES350 minus nav as my loaner for a week and drove it 60+ miles a day round trip to/from work while my tranny was being replaced. It had about 4500 miles or so on it and shifted flawlessly for the entire time I drove it. I put over 500 miles on it while I had it and the tranny never so much as hiccuped. I only wish my own car's tranny was so smooth...
I suppose there is a chance that the different driving habits of all the disparate pilots intermittently using the loaner have affected the ECU learning process. Perhaps there is also something possibly related to the fact that people tend to drive loaners harder than they do their personal vehicles...? In any event, I commented to the dealer when I picked up my car that I hoped it would now be as smooth as the loaner I had driven for a week... It's not, but that's beside the point.
I'm convinced that an ES350 transmission *can* indeed shift flawlessly, though its not clear when or why...
I believe the loaner had either a July or August build date...
Marc
With respect to the ECU discussion, I suspect we'll likely never know how long it actually takes for the device to program itself (and perhaps it can continously reprogram itself indefinitely if parameter thresholds are exceeded after programming would otherwise have been previously 'completed') unless a Lexus insider were to step up and explain the specifics of the programming algorithm. I'm relatively sure that Lexus would perceive the divulgence of such information as problematic and consequently we're unlikely to ever see it...
For what it's worth, I had an ES350 minus nav as my loaner for a week and drove it 60+ miles a day round trip to/from work while my tranny was being replaced. It had about 4500 miles or so on it and shifted flawlessly for the entire time I drove it. I put over 500 miles on it while I had it and the tranny never so much as hiccuped. I only wish my own car's tranny was so smooth...
I suppose there is a chance that the different driving habits of all the disparate pilots intermittently using the loaner have affected the ECU learning process. Perhaps there is also something possibly related to the fact that people tend to drive loaners harder than they do their personal vehicles...? In any event, I commented to the dealer when I picked up my car that I hoped it would now be as smooth as the loaner I had driven for a week... It's not, but that's beside the point.
I'm convinced that an ES350 transmission *can* indeed shift flawlessly, though its not clear when or why...
I believe the loaner had either a July or August build date...
Marc
11-10-06, 09:47 PM
#28
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Bob... I have solid logic behind it being a programming issue. These ECU maps take year(s) to develop, especially so they react appropriately to the various conditions customers will use their vehicles. Yes, I've got the V6 Camry, but it has the same exact engine and transaxle as the ES... I'm hearing/experiencing the same issues you are, I just have a different take on them.
In brief, the valve body is actually very simple to install, the tranny case does not need to be split to change this part and replacements have failed... Next, we need to understand that this so called "vendor change" is related to the early build "snap ring" issues where the tranny basically self-destructed when the "inferior vendor" part gave way... That was a simple fix, find a new vendor and refill the parts bins on the assembly line. Other than this there is nothing the build date will indicate as fixing the flair/spike/starving/etc we're experiencing because it isn't a simple fix.
The ECU program is like a huge decision tree, problem is when the trunk or main branch of the tree fails, it wipes out all the smaller branches and leaves associated with it.
I'm willing to bet Toyota knows exactly what's causing this issue, they however cannot develop a quick enough solution because of all the "related components." Say they flash your ECU and the flair goes away, you might now be really pissed that the car say for example skips all the odd gears when cold causing sluggishness or the engine now races at 2500rpm upon cold startup, etc. or your high beams flash like the Vegas strip until the transmission temperature sender start sending a nuetral signal... Some off base associations, but I'm providing them to help describe that none of us knows how deep the ECUs (yes there are multiples) react when you take or add something to the program.... In the interim, I think Toyota is taking it on the chin and using public releations/customer service on a case by case basis to show the whiners they're making progress and keep them happy/content and most importantly QUIET. It would be nice if they just came out and said it was an ECU problem, but considering the customer base of the Camry/ES, this could be a death march because the majority of these owners haven't a clue what is going on with their car.
In brief, the valve body is actually very simple to install, the tranny case does not need to be split to change this part and replacements have failed... Next, we need to understand that this so called "vendor change" is related to the early build "snap ring" issues where the tranny basically self-destructed when the "inferior vendor" part gave way... That was a simple fix, find a new vendor and refill the parts bins on the assembly line. Other than this there is nothing the build date will indicate as fixing the flair/spike/starving/etc we're experiencing because it isn't a simple fix.
The ECU program is like a huge decision tree, problem is when the trunk or main branch of the tree fails, it wipes out all the smaller branches and leaves associated with it.
I'm willing to bet Toyota knows exactly what's causing this issue, they however cannot develop a quick enough solution because of all the "related components." Say they flash your ECU and the flair goes away, you might now be really pissed that the car say for example skips all the odd gears when cold causing sluggishness or the engine now races at 2500rpm upon cold startup, etc. or your high beams flash like the Vegas strip until the transmission temperature sender start sending a nuetral signal... Some off base associations, but I'm providing them to help describe that none of us knows how deep the ECUs (yes there are multiples) react when you take or add something to the program.... In the interim, I think Toyota is taking it on the chin and using public releations/customer service on a case by case basis to show the whiners they're making progress and keep them happy/content and most importantly QUIET. It would be nice if they just came out and said it was an ECU problem, but considering the customer base of the Camry/ES, this could be a death march because the majority of these owners haven't a clue what is going on with their car.
11-11-06, 12:22 AM
#29
I'm also on my second tranny now and have probably two weeks or so on the new one. I haven't fully qualified the behavior yet, but I do believe that I'm experiencing similar flare/slipping symptoms to (albeit not quite as noticeable as) those I experienced with the original transmission. I think I notice the issue gradually growing more noticeable, but not just certain yet...
For what it's worth, I had an ES350 minus nav as my loaner for a week and drove it 60+ miles a day round trip to/from work while my tranny was being replaced. It had about 4500 miles or so on it and shifted flawlessly for the entire time I drove it. I put over 500 miles on it while I had it and the tranny never so much as hiccuped. I only wish my own car's tranny was so smooth...
I'm convinced that an ES350 transmission *can* indeed shift flawlessly, though its not clear when or why...Marc
For what it's worth, I had an ES350 minus nav as my loaner for a week and drove it 60+ miles a day round trip to/from work while my tranny was being replaced. It had about 4500 miles or so on it and shifted flawlessly for the entire time I drove it. I put over 500 miles on it while I had it and the tranny never so much as hiccuped. I only wish my own car's tranny was so smooth...
I'm convinced that an ES350 transmission *can* indeed shift flawlessly, though its not clear when or why...Marc
Having driven 4 ES's now, the smoothest trans was actually my trans when it was new. It's the only trans that was just smooth in changing gears - any gear.
11-11-06, 03:58 AM
#30
Lexus Champion
I agree that it does increase over time. It just seems to keep increasing in rpm range and in number of slips\flares. I also find that if I do a big road trip (500kms) or so in a day, that tends to make it worse from that point onwards. I have no idea why. Every trans is different, and I'm sure some come on more suddenly than others.
Having driven 4 ES's now, the smoothest trans was actually my trans when it was new. It's the only trans that was just smooth in changing gears - any gear.
Having driven 4 ES's now, the smoothest trans was actually my trans when it was new. It's the only trans that was just smooth in changing gears - any gear.
In my experience the intensity of the RPM spike increases faster than the frequency of them happening by a wide margin. The frequency of them comes later.
Wanderer,
I hope your TSIB works for you even though I have my strong doubts about it because I know having a new car worked on or even in for service is a pain.