wstr75

Had our 400h serviced today and the salesman showed me the dealer's demo ES 350 UL. It has 4K miles and the new sticker price was approx. $44K. Can probably get $2 - 3K off. There are well equipped 2004 & 2005 LS 430s with about 30K miles being traded-in for LS 460s selling in the same price range as this ES 350. I don't have a problem with a 30K mile car because we all know it can easily go well past 200K miles. Besides gas mileage differences (Highway: 25 vs 30), any of you do the pros & cons for buying a used LS 430 instead of a new (or nearly new) ES 350? Am currently driving a 2002 Acura RL. I am concerned about the LS putting me a bit on the spot status-wise. On the other hand, the LS is rock solid regarding product quality, lasting-value, ride, etc. The ES 350 is a nice ride and some folks see it as the second-coming of the LS 400 which we all still see fifteen years later still looking and driving quite well.

Any thoughts?

ES350Bob

Getting only 2 to 3 k off a car with 4,000 miles is no bargain, 4k to 5k off and maybe they are getting warm.

Also seems odd a demonstrator would have 4 k miles, that seems high unless it was a company car for the sales manager or general manager or something.

Kaius88

i was gonna say...thats awfully high mileage for a demo car, as people usually buy the cars off the floor really fast. I wouldnt even call cars from the sales floor as demos because they just sit there a few days without accruing mileage. My car was on the sales floor for 4 days (i went to dealership everyday that week to have them check up on my new MSM which I bought earlier). I admired this car and saw a few people sit in it. I eventually bought it and it had 29 miles on it. I got $4800 off of MSRP, but that was partly because I traded in a brand new MSM PP+ at a loss. Anyway, for a new car to have 4000 miles would make it a "used" car. I'm sure they can detail it and restore it to new condition before delivering it to you. I would ask for at least $5k off MSRP. Make them throw in a 100k mile warranty too! If they say no, go for the used LS.

ES350Bob

I thought I saw you post earlier where you are a newbie at this, that idea of asking for the 100,000 mile warranty is a must and a good call, seems you are far better at this than you think yourself.

cowdung

This is a no-brainer. ALWAYS choose the toyota V8 over the V6. One of the lowest wearing engines period. You get rear wheel drive and since you live in North Carolina, dont have to worry about the white fluffy stuff. All the problems on the ES board(I dont follow this board but whenever i peek, its full of negative comments). The only negative in this deal is probably the gas mileage. If you can live with poor mileage, pull the trigger on the LS430.

wstr75

It has 4K miles because the guy who owns the dealership has been driving it. He's been driving LS 430s but his last two cars have been ES 350s because the LS 460 is in tight demand and he doesn't want to deny a customer a LS 460.

I appreciate your comments re: negotiating for $4k to $5K off. Still, no one has voiced an opinion about the relative "worth" of two cars priced in the same neighborhood. The used 2004/2005 LS 430 versus the new ES 350.

ES350Bob

Try this, it might help you better than we can:

Do a google search typing in used ES350 and you will see them for sale even some with miles like the one you are thinking of, then do search again typing in used LS and compare the two and see what you think then.

Do ask for extended warranty as Kauis suggested if you center on the ES and maybe be willing to pay a couple hundred to 500 hundred dollars more than what comes up in search if you get the warranty extension.

wstr75

ES350Bob, I appreciate your comment, but you're missing my point. For the moment, let's set aside purchase price debate questions. For essentially the same price I can buy a used 2004/2005 LS 430 with 30K miles or buy a new ES 350. Is there an equivalency here or does one car rate out as a better "worth" proposition? The LS 430 may be a better car to drive for the next, say, seven years than the ES 350. Is it? Is it not? The LS 430 has been made for a number of years. The ES 350 is a first year product. The LS 430 is a dated design. The ES 350 is a new, state of the art design. At the end of the day it is my wife and I making the decision, but what I was looking for was to hear from anyone who had looked at this very same comparison and to hear their logic on this matter.

So what do you think? A stuffed LS 430 with 30 to 35K miles or a new or nearly new stuffed ES 350? As they say on the NFL program, "You make the call!"

Kaius88

Im biased....I pick brand new ES350. The reason is that the interior is similar, it has better gas mileage, and it is sleeker in appearance. The LS has always been more sturdy, quiet and luxurious, but i never liked the style. A 30k-35k vehicle is usually about 3 years old. If it is less than 3 years, than it is considered high mileage with extra wear-n-tear. Yes the Lexus cars last forever, but nothing beats a brand new lexus...the new car smell is worth the price of admission.

omarg

Although i have only driven both for short distances, I can say the LS430 is a better car. Remember this car was 60k+ new and was the flagship of lexus, it should and will hold its own against near luxury cars that are only 2-3 years newer. Actually I remember hearing somewhere from lexus that the ES has finally "JUST" passed the 1st gen ls400 in ride and acceleration, and pretty much everything else.

To put it in perspective, is a new 2007 3-series better than a 2003 745i? Thats a most definite no. How about 10 years from now? I'm guessing still... no.

Also the LS430 is probably better value becuase it will be like new and suffered abnormally high depreciation, because of the ls460. Also the LS430 is faster and will probably even more trouble free.

No offense to es350 owners but we all know that its a camry in an armani suit, that went to finishing school.

wstr75

Kaius, thanks for your comments. I see where your car has "The Works". Speaking of the works, I asked about getting an ES 350 with everything including the radar cruise control. They told me they had recently checked for another customer and found there were ZERO units available in the Southeast. Further, he said it could be up to a six month wait for a car having that option.

You'd think Lexus would sprinkle a handful of the high-tech cruise control equipped cars into their production schedule, don't you think? Zero in stock and a possible six month wait for a population area (Southeast) approaching 100 million? Does not make sense unless there is a shortage or glitch with the cruise unit.

ES350Bob

Here is a thought to gain some additional insight in a round about way,

Call your insurance carrier and ask for rates on both cars, you may end up surprised with the reasons the rates differ if they do and be given insight into value placed more toward one than the other which may help you make up your mind once and for all.

PsychDoc

One very important variable you'll want to consider is that the used LS only has 20k miles left on the warranty. If you're an average driver, you'll use that up in about a year and a half and then you're on your own. The ES will have it's full warranty still available to you should there be any problems.

I'm assuming the LS has Mark Levinson and nav, though I'd check if it's the 4th generation nav or the current one (5th).

And don't forget that while gas prices have moderated quite significantly, $3-$4/gallon gas is probably just around the corner. A 5-6 mpg difference is something you're likely to feel when that happens.

All in all, I'd look for at least $5k off the MSRP of the UL ES and I'd go that way.

twister

... and since you are not looking in general at ES350 but rather at a "specific" 4k miles ES350, make a checklist of every problem found on this forum and verify it with that car. 4k is sufficient enough miles to see if you get the "other works" that might come with a brand new ES350

ES350Bob

LOL Twister,

Those are extras at no charge, a bargain for enjoying the ride alone.

and I noticed psych did not interject his key bias in his advice, the LS otherwise would have been a sure thing <G>